Someone with more knowledge may correct me but I think that in the early days in the United States they were navigated using VOR/DME and/or ADF in conjunction with paper charts and dead reckoning.  Next came Inertial Navigation Systems (INS), then after the KAL 007 incident the federal government opened GPS signals for civilian use, and this was the impetus for modern day Inertial Reference Systems (IRS), GPS, and Flight Management Systems/Computers (FMS/FMC).  Of course, radio navigation aids and dead reckoning were and always are used as the underlying navigation method for safety purposes.  You can still navigate airways, SIDS, and STARS using VOR/DME, but your navigation chops, hand flying skills, knowledge of aircraft performance limitations, and chart reading must be well developed.

Well, since airlines ALWAYS fly IFR unless they're in Alaska and bushplanes, you can be vectored on your course correctly to your destination. However, since going cross-country requires you to navigate on your own, pilots would use pre-established airways, and track those to their destination. They would also have a certain computer that could calculate a heading that would take you on the correct path of the great circle route. The 727 was indeed, hand-flown more than most modern jets, as there was no altitude bug, and the heading selector would change as they didn't have a slaved compass. There is more, but this shows why pilots go into recurrent training every year!

You can enable both sorts of navigation equipment in the CS 727.
You already can see the default GPS there and there's a mod around where you get some "Nav" switch on the AP to follow it. This would be the easiest but less authentic method though.

The Civa INS can be integrated too and fits much better to the character of the plane in my eyes. Some guys even fly both mods, so they can switch or check their stuff while the basic 727 installation just goes VOR to VOR or by setting the heading bug to "home" and watch the fuel flow.  

All mentioned mods can be found in this very forum section. They are free and just need a text editor as a tool to work with.

Oh, also, is there a good way to navigate without any additional stuff? I may install the INS system, but is there a built-in way? PJ747 mentioned being vectored. How do you do that in FSX?

(I do appreciate your help, CoolP, I'm just trying to become more well-versed in the subject  )

Thanks for your response, David Paul. I know how to use the ATC (sort of, I'm no expert, but I can use it.) and an IFR flight plan, but I'm used to using FMCs and the GPS in the Primary Flight Display on an aircraft such as the 767. I'm not, however, very well versed in old-style navigation without a GPS. I know the 727 comes with one, but the technology wasn't readily available at the time, so I would prefer not to use it.

Here's my flight: I have taken off at runway heading from Minneapolis (they vectored me to that heading and told me to maintain 10,000'). My next VOR (I'm flying VOR to VOR) is DWN. How do I reach the VOR without my GPS? I know I have to go at a heading of 222, but I wouldn't know when I've reached it and when to head to the next VOR. Oh, and I'll use manual navigation for this flight. Thanks!

Now, I don't want to sound offensive in any way but a simple search on the net will help you there. VOR navigation isn't a flight sim special, it's very basic knowledge for people connected to aviation, so you will find tons of tutorials, videos or just some simple descriptions on how stuff works and should be used. There were other people looking for this information before and there are surely more to come, so use what is already available. Even FSX itself has a learning center and will teach you things with some example flights too.
Maybe you can start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6_TAdjWd00 and watch out for more videos or just some Wikipedia explanation. That's the web, it's all there.  

boeing247 wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:08pm:


Yes, it is the heading in the NavLog or the heading determined by looking at a sectional chart.

This is odd... I got everything working, but they course offset indicator says I'm too far right. I went further left and nothing changed (I checked the GPS and put myself too far left, which did nothing). What's happening?

boeing247 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 3:25am:


If you are talking about the segment of the CDI indicator arrow on the HSI showing to the right of the course arrow, that means you have deviated to the left of the course and must fly to the right of the specified heading/course until the segment begins moving to left to align with the CDI arrow.  If it is showing to the left of the CDI arrow, you have deviated to the right of the course and must turn left to intercept.

Quote:

Above a certain offset (should be 10 degrees), the instrument shows you its max deflection of the needle, so you can't see if you are 10 or 70 degrees off for example. This might explain the reaction after "correcting" your course in the way you describe it.

Maybe you want to believe me that the whole navigation thing in aviation is a big (and interesting) book, including some knowledge and maths, together with some rules to learn.
Personally, I get the impression that you've read about two lines of that thick book and though "ah, that must be it, lets fly then", letting this nice book fall back to the floor and entering the cockpit. No offence intended.
We all had (or still have) to start on this topic, that's what makes the flying interesting since you can train and try all kinds of things in the sim. Now, the training comes from actually understanding what is happening. The Learning Center of FSX stays a tip (hint, hint).

So I really, really recommend reading some things after feeding e. g. Google with your interest in "VOR Navigation". For the people who don't like to read, videos will cover the whole thing too, so there actually is quite some stuff to enjoy while the current technique of trial and error together with the short explanations possible in forum posts won't lead to a good end, but a fragmented and diffuse one.   The topic gets described on every good aviation site, no need to copy it into the CS forums as if it was something newly discovered.

If you're up to reading a bit, here's a useful link to enjoy some free available sources. http://www.flightsimbooks.com/

Sadly, the whole FMC driven planes in the sim are often used to let people start the wrong way. They jump in the 767, feed their computers to some extend and let the plane fly itself.
No real Pilot would start this way, they all go from the basics to the advanced things. You won't understand all advanced items until you haven't understood the basics which, for example, the navigation skills are.
I'm learning something new every day, so don't see me as some experienced guy there. But I'm at least aware of where to start.  

Concerning your very special problem (which will be just one in the whole chapter, which isn't a problem of course), it would help to determine which Course you are supposed to go and on which Course you are currently moving. So you can calculate an intercept heading, leading you to the desired Course (and therefore route) in the shortest amount of time.

Ok, here's some offence, but that one with  , so don't get upset.
# Part II — Instrument Flight

   * Chapter 10: The Hazards of Flying On Instruments Without Knowing How
http://www.flightsimbooks.com/flightsimhandbook/

Quote:

Call me sissy, please.  

VOR to VOR is great, but the online Controllers appreciate at least some ability to go for an intersection from time to time (at least for the Airliner guys), so my choice stays the also old (but too new for the original 727) INS then, where I can hack in some coordinates of somehow virtual (no station there) waypoints.
Yes, I could do some cross radial readings on the RMI, but that's a lot of work in busy skies (for me) and far away from accurate.
Also, the CS 727 needs a small update to get the FO's instruments working independently. Would be neat to have, the 707 shows how it's done.
Of course, the GPS would be in the newer and retrofitted 727s around and, in the sim, it also allows the very first steps into flying this classic plane.
While the FMC retrofitted variant sadly won't come alive in the sim, I personally can live with the not so original and "sissy"   GPS conversion from CS.
Most loved though? Going INS on her.  

But learning VOR to VOR and all the things around it stays a tip in my eyes. Who would want to be fully dependent on a FMC together with a nice moving map all the time?
I'm having much fun when "guessing" my position with the steam gauges only and then seeing that I was right (or, sometimes, totally way out) about it when I connect the map for some seconds.


For the guys willing to learn and try some VOR Navigation, here's a neat site with an app on it, to "fly" your plane and then see how its position would look like on the instruments. http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
Looks small and harmless, but trains your mind if you are new to the thing like I am.

Hey, LOU. That's what I've been trying to do, learn to operate the VOR stuff on the 727. Now, no offense to CoolP, who has been graciously providing me with links to tutorials, but I've read the entire VOR tutorial in FSX, so I know what I'm doing (to some extent, I'm no expert), but my CDI says I way off course to the left, even when I know (by cheating and looking at the GPS) that I'm way off-course to the right. What's going on?

boeing247 wrote on Mar 14^th, 2011 at 3:02am:


Sorry if I am wrong but it sounds like you are confusing the indications of the CDI.  If the CDI bar is to the left of the course arrow, then you are too far to the right of the course and must turn left to intercept.  The course deviation indicator shows the direction of offset from the desired course relative to your current course.  General rule, if the bar is to the left, fly to the left, and when the bar is to the right of center, fly to the right to intercept.  Of course this is backwards when you are flying away from a VOR.

CoolP, once again you hit the nail right on the head with your VOR post above.

I'm just about to sit down to supper, but I'll try to post a simple quick review soon of how to get from A to B via VOR's only!

Lou

A quick look at VOR navigation.

The VOR is a very handy tool to find your way around the sky.

Try to visualize a lighthouse with a beam that spins at 1 RPM. Every time the light beam passes magnetic north there is a bright flash of light to tell you that it is pointing at north. As you look at the lighthouse and see the bright flash you start a stop watch. When the rotating beam of light points to you, observe the stop watch. For this example let's say you see the beam go by you at 15 seconds. You are at 90 degrees from north at 15 seconds, or another way of saying this would be that you are on the 090 degree radial from the lighthouse station.

To go to the lighthouse you would need to track the 15 second (090 degree radial.) If you start to see the watch showing 17 or 18 seconds as the beam passed your position you would be drifting left of course. Does this make sense? If it does, you are starting to visualize how the VOR works.

Here are some things you need to keep in mind...
1. RADIALS radiate from the station.
2. You cannot fly into a radial!  

When you fly using the VOR the OBS and the Compass must be almost the same.

In the example of the lighthouse, above, you are on the 15 second radial which we need to change to degrees so you can use this example and apply it to VOR's. In order to fly TO the lighthouse (VOR) your OBS selection and compass must agree. So the OBS would be set to 270 degrees and now you can fly TO the VOR with to-the-needle sensing. Remember - RADIALS radiate FROM the station. You cannot fly into the station - backwards - on that 090 degree radial because the display on your instrument will be reversed. So, you must dial in the reciprocating or opposite radial so you will get proper needle display. To fly backwards on the radial is called dragging the needle.

Now if I have not made you completely lost here is a look at a typical trip using some VOR's.

The VOR's for this trip are named A, B, C & D. Our trip starts at an airport called Mark's Farm (MARKOZ) not far from VOR-A. We are the GREEN plane. To get to the VOR is easy. Just tune and identify the VOR station. Turn the OBS until the needle centers with a TO indication. The number in the OBS will show you the RECIPROCATING radial, the one on the other side of the VOR. Now, if you just fly that heading you will fly to the station. As you fly, you will need to correct for wind drift. If the plane drifts left of course the needle will move to the right showing you where the selected course is. Make a small correction for the wind. As you near the station the needle will get sensitive and move around quickly. Don't chase the needle, just fly your heading. When you cross the station you will be in the cone of confusion. To fly outbound from station A you will need to fly the 110 degree radial. Dial the OBS so it reads 110 and turn to that heading. If you know the wind already, you can apply a correction to your heading, or just see what the needle says. As you passed over the station, the TO/FROM indicator flipped to FROM showing station passage.

You can follow the trip using the colored planes to see the display in the VOR indicators on the right side of the drawing. I put in the purple plane to show that flying the wrong way will give you the opposite needle indication. If you flip the purple plane to the inbound course, the indicator is correct.



The intersections of HEAVY and LIGHT are made from the radials of VOR D or by the DME from the noted VOR's.

I hope this helps you to understand how to go from VOR to VOR.

Lou

Hey, thanks, LOU! That should be a HUGE help! 

CoolP wrote:
In clear weather though, the danger seems to be manageable.

You would think, however that is when these stupid things happen. In IMC you would be forced to set the radios and keep a sharp eye on where the plane is. At least that is the way it's planed. On a beautiful VFR day you tend to relax and that is setting you up for a bite in the butt.

We had a crew ferry a 707 down to Mexico to bring back a charter group. Just the cockpit and cabin crew were on the plane. It was a bit hazy but for the most part a nice day. When the flight was switched from approach to tower, the tower cleared the flight to land. Now the bite in the butt!

Your in the middle of the jungle, it's a bit hazy and your cleared to land at an airport you never set eyes on. Oh no!  

The pilots looked out the window and guess what they saw just a few miles ahead...... a runway! But did they look over the approach chart really well before the descent? My guess is NO! The airport of intended landing was ahead about 10 miles away. What they saw was an old crop duster field that was aligned almost the same as the distant airport of intended landing.

They were cleared to land

They looked out the window and there was the runway - so let's land!

Well, just about the time they went into the flare it dawned on them that this was maybe a bit narrow, and maybe a bit short, and maybe the wrong place, and this is what is called in the business - an oh s#%t moment!

Well, they got the old gal stopped and looked around. Engines one & four inlets were green from all the grass they slid through. After the "moment" passed, they thought about what they could do to extract themselves from their situation. They kept cool and shut down engines 1 & 4. The F/E went out the tunnel in the cockpit and exited the plane via the E&E door, just behind the nose wheel. The F/E was able to find some very surprised locals whom he hired to use machetes to clear the grass from the side of the runway. He was able to get a ladder and the cabin team was taken off the plane and sent over via ground transport to the "real" airport. After clearing all the grass out of the outboard engines, and seeing no damage just green stain, one & four were started. They looked OK. The captain carefully (too late now) turned the plane around and after the F/E got back on board, blasted off for the proper airport.

Now remember this is early 70's maybe late 60's. They checked out the plane with the local mechanics and determined her fit to go, so they put the people on and off they went. Well as you can guess, all hell broke out when the chief pilot got them into his office. But, if they had not flown the old gal out by themselves they would never have received permission from the FAA and the plane would still be there as some tropical bar.

So the moral of the story... SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Don't get complacent. Because you know the old bite in the butt is just around the corner. These guys were very lucky. It could have been a disaster. You never know, so keep alert. When I was doing flight instruction in the airlines, my students would sometimes ask; How do you know when not to do something? My advice, use the sphincter as your guide. If it is not comfortable, don't do it! Also, ask yourself - Can I defend this action at the hearing?  

When I got my instrument ticket, my CFII was insistent on practicing the IFR to VFR transition, as many of the major "D'OH" moments, like landing on a taxiway or the airport access road come when someone pops out of the scmoo on approach is confused and promptly lands on the taxiway.  You'll likely live, but the FAA wil be unhappy.

Lou,

I was planing to buy 24" monitor for FSX. I just noticed you have 40" monitor.
Does  40" monitor  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

THX

Sanal

Lou.

Thank you for your reply.

"I run the video at max resolution of 1920X1080X32"

Does  max resolution of 1920X1080X32"  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

Sanal

Thank you.

CoolP, now you know that size matters! 

Ok, guys, now that we're off topic I'd like to report that, after using my Civa planes for numerous flights, I jumped in one of the FMC driven ones again, just to catch the difference.
Wow, that was like replacing a Windows PC with a NES. Just put in the cartridge and start the game.

Speed bug settings? FMC driven. Tuning the right VORs for flying the Departure procedure? FMC driven. Following altitude constraints by doing some maths? FMC driven. Updating your nav sources to stay accurate? You name it.
Coming from the steam gauged 727/707 things and entering a modern plane means that you enable power and press "go!".  
What a difference! Boring, but relaxing on the first try (after some time of absence), I must admit.  

I actually love the steamliners, but switching the seats from time to time shows you what was achieved in case of systems and safety.