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Navigation (Read 27789 times)

boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Navigation Mar 12^th, 2011 at 2:15am	Print Post
	How would the 727 have navigated? There is a GPS, but was that technology available at the time? I wouldn't think so. I've done a quick search of the manual and found nothing. How was navigation operated in this plane and is it any different in Flight Sim?

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audiohavoc Full Member Offline Posts: 160 Joined: Sep 13^th, 2009	Re: Navigation Reply #1 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 2:57am	Print Post
	Someone with more knowledge may correct me but I think that in the early days in the United States they were navigated using VOR/DME and/or ADF in conjunction with paper charts and dead reckoning. �Next came Inertial Navigation Systems (INS), then after the KAL 007 incident the federal government opened GPS signals for civilian use, and this was the impetus for modern day Inertial Reference Systems (IRS), GPS, and Flight Management Systems/Computers (FMS/FMC). �Of course, radio navigation aids and dead reckoning were and always are used as the underlying navigation method for safety purposes. �You can still navigate airways, SIDS, and STARS using VOR/DME, but your navigation chops, hand flying skills, knowledge of aircraft performance limitations, and chart reading must be well developed.

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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #2 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 4:05am	Print Post
	I'm not well-versed in these kinds of navigation. Could anybody offer a short explanation on how to realistically navigate with the 727? I know how to work the 707, but in the 727 it is no simple matter of setting autopilot to "NAV". Also, is there INS in the 727? I couldn't find it, and I'm not sure I'd know how to use it. I'm just getting used to using complex aircraft systems. (I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to figuring out navigation stuff, so I apologize if I'm asking stupid questions... )

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701151 Senior Member Offline Delta 737-200 Posts: 1009 Location: UNITED STATES Joined: Jan 29^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #3 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 1:47pm	Print Post
	Well, since airlines ALWAYS fly IFR unless they're in Alaska and bushplanes, you can be vectored on your course correctly to your destination. However, since going cross-country requires you to navigate on your own, pilots would use pre-established airways, and track those to their destination. They would also have a certain computer that could calculate a heading that would take you on the correct path of the great circle route. The 727 was indeed, hand-flown more than most modern jets, as there was no altitude bug, and the heading selector would change as they didn't have a slaved compass. There is more, but this shows why pilots go into recurrent training every year!


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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #4 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 7:58pm	Print Post
	So how does this translate into FSX? Sorry, as I said, I'm new to this.

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CoolP Senior Member Offline Posts: 2568 Joined: Jan 17^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #5 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 8:40pm	Print Post
	You can enable both sorts of navigation equipment in the CS 727. You already can see the default GPS there and there's a mod around where you get some "Nav" switch on the AP to follow it. This would be the easiest but less authentic method though. The Civa INS can be integrated too and fits much better to the character of the plane in my eyes. Some guys even fly both mods, so they can switch or check their stuff while the basic 727 installation just goes VOR to VOR or by setting the heading bug to "home" and watch the fuel flow. � All mentioned mods can be found in this very forum section. They are free and just need a text editor as a tool to work with.


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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #6 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 9:03pm	Print Post
	So the real 727 used INS? I wonder why CS didn't include it... odd... Awesome, thanks! You wouldn't happen to know where in the 727 forum they are, would you? Search isn't giving me anything...

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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #7 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 9:21pm	Print Post
	Oh, also, is there a good way to navigate without any additional stuff? I may install the INS system, but is there a built-in way? PJ747 mentioned being vectored. How do you do that in FSX? (I do appreciate your help, CoolP, I'm just trying to become more well-versed in the subject )

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David Paul Senior Member Offline Posts: 270 Joined: Dec 25^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #8 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 10:10pm	Print Post
	Boeing247, do you know how to file an IFR flight plan within FSX and fly under the built-in ATC yet? �Once you know how to do that, you can use the built in GPS system to fly your flight plan either manually or with the autopilot. � You can actually do this without any mods by simply assigning a key combination to toggle NAV/GPS and then use NAV Hold with the 727 autopilot. �There is a thread on how to add a GPS/NAV switch to your 2D autopilot panel as well, to make things easier. � The built-in ATC will vector you to line up with your flight plan, but you have to navigate from there. �Using the GPS system and the autopilot to do this is pretty much the same thing that an INS system does. �Only with the INS system you have to manually plug in all your waypoints. �The GPS will already have all of that ready to go for you when you have an IFR filght plan.

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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #9 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 10:24pm	Print Post
	Thanks for your response, David Paul. I know how to use the ATC (sort of, I'm no expert, but I can use it.) and an IFR flight plan, but I'm used to using FMCs and the GPS in the Primary Flight Display on an aircraft such as the 767. I'm not, however, very well versed in old-style navigation without a GPS. I know the 727 comes with one, but the technology wasn't readily available at the time, so I would prefer not to use it. Here's my flight: I have taken off at runway heading from Minneapolis (they vectored me to that heading and told me to maintain 10,000'). My next VOR (I'm flying VOR to VOR) is DWN. How do I reach the VOR without my GPS? I know I have to go at a heading of 222, but I wouldn't know when I've reached it and when to head to the next VOR. Oh, and I'll use manual navigation for this flight. Thanks!

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audiohavoc Full Member Offline Posts: 160 Joined: Sep 13^th, 2009	Re: Navigation Reply #10 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:03pm	Print Post
	For VOR navigation, first tune the NAV 1 radio to the frequency of the VOR. You could turn on the "IDENT" listen on the communication source select panel to check the morse code identifier to verify you have tuned in the correct station, but I don't know if the CS 727 simulates this function. �Next, rotate the �course deviation indicator (CDI) on the horizontal situation indicator (HSI, compass looking gauge below the attitude direction indicator, ADI) to the desired course to the VOR. �Now you will get course deviation indications from the CDI needle on the HSI, and if the VOR has DME (distance measuring equipment) you will get a distance reading to the station on the upper left corner of the HSI and in the DME indicator window down and to the right. � I recommend reading up on VOR navigation and/or doing the VOR tutorial that is in the FSX lessons section.

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CoolP Senior Member Offline Posts: 2568 Joined: Jan 17^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #11 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:05pm	Print Post
	Now, I don't want to sound offensive in any way but a simple search on the net will help you there. VOR navigation isn't a flight sim special, it's very basic knowledge for people connected to aviation, so you will find tons of tutorials, videos or just some simple descriptions on how stuff works and should be used. There were other people looking for this information before and there are surely more to come, so use what is already available. Even FSX itself has a learning center and will teach you things with some example flights too. Maybe you can start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6_TAdjWd00 and watch out for more videos or just some Wikipedia explanation. That's the web, it's all there. �


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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #12 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:08pm	Print Post
	Thanks a ton, audiohavoc! Finally I know what all those abbreviations mean (that's why it has taken me so long to learn this stuff, I didn't have a clue what they meant). Just one thing: what's the desired course? Is it the listed heading in your NavLog?

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audiohavoc Full Member Offline Posts: 160 Joined: Sep 13^th, 2009	Re: Navigation Reply #13 - Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:34pm	Print Post
	boeing247 wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:08pm: Thanks a ton, audiohavoc! � Finally I know what all those abbreviations mean (that's why it has taken me so long to learn this stuff, I didn't have a clue what they meant). Just one thing: what's the desired course? Is it the listed heading in your NavLog? Yes, it is the heading in the NavLog or the heading determined by looking at a sectional chart.

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boeing247 Senior Member Offline Pilots: Looking down on people since 1903 Posts: 1506 Location: Southern CA Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Navigation Reply #14 - Mar 13^th, 2011 at 12:21am	Print Post
	Okay, thanks to all who replied! I think I have it figured out. Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.

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