How would the 727 have navigated? There is a GPS, but was that technology available at the time? I wouldn't think so. I've done a quick search of the manual and found nothing. How was navigation operated in this plane and is it any different in Flight Sim?

Someone with more knowledge may correct me but I think that in the early days in the United States they were navigated using VOR/DME and/or ADF in conjunction with paper charts and dead reckoning.  Next came Inertial Navigation Systems (INS), then after the KAL 007 incident the federal government opened GPS signals for civilian use, and this was the impetus for modern day Inertial Reference Systems (IRS), GPS, and Flight Management Systems/Computers (FMS/FMC).  Of course, radio navigation aids and dead reckoning were and always are used as the underlying navigation method for safety purposes.  You can still navigate airways, SIDS, and STARS using VOR/DME, but your navigation chops, hand flying skills, knowledge of aircraft performance limitations, and chart reading must be well developed.

I'm not well-versed in these kinds of navigation. Could anybody offer a short explanation on how to realistically navigate with the 727? I know how to work the 707, but in the 727 it is no simple matter of setting autopilot to "NAV".

Also, is there INS in the 727? I couldn't find it, and I'm not sure I'd know how to use it. I'm just getting used to using complex aircraft systems. (I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to figuring out navigation stuff, so I apologize if I'm asking stupid questions...  ;))

Well, since airlines ALWAYS fly IFR unless they're in Alaska and bushplanes, you can be vectored on your course correctly to your destination. However, since going cross-country requires you to navigate on your own, pilots would use pre-established airways, and track those to their destination. They would also have a certain computer that could calculate a heading that would take you on the correct path of the great circle route. The 727 was indeed, hand-flown more than most modern jets, as there was no altitude bug, and the heading selector would change as they didn't have a slaved compass. There is more, but this shows why pilots go into recurrent training every year!

So how does this translate into FSX? Sorry, as I said, I'm new to this.  ;)

You can enable both sorts of navigation equipment in the CS 727.
You already can see the default GPS there and there's a mod around where you get some "Nav" switch on the AP to follow it. This would be the easiest but less authentic method though.

The Civa INS can be integrated too and fits much better to the character of the plane in my eyes. Some guys even fly both mods, so they can switch or check their stuff while the basic 727 installation just goes VOR to VOR or by setting the heading bug to "home" and watch the fuel flow.  ;D

All mentioned mods can be found in this very forum section. They are free and just need a text editor as a tool to work with.

So the real 727 used INS? I wonder why CS didn't include it... odd...

Awesome, thanks! You wouldn't happen to know where in the 727 forum they are, would you? Search isn't giving me anything...

Oh, also, is there a good way to navigate without any additional stuff? I may install the INS system, but is there a built-in way? PJ747 mentioned being vectored. How do you do that in FSX?

(I do appreciate your help, CoolP, I'm just trying to become more well-versed in the subject  :))

Boeing247, do you know how to file an IFR flight plan within FSX and fly under the built-in ATC yet?  Once you know how to do that, you can use the built in GPS system to fly your flight plan either manually or with the autopilot.  

You can actually do this without any mods by simply assigning a key combination to toggle NAV/GPS and then use NAV Hold with the 727 autopilot.  There is a thread on how to add a GPS/NAV switch to your 2D autopilot panel as well, to make things easier.  

The built-in ATC will vector you to line up with your flight plan, but you have to navigate from there.  Using the GPS system and the autopilot to do this is pretty much the same thing that an INS system does.  Only with the INS system you have to manually plug in all your waypoints.  The GPS will already have all of that ready to go for you when you have an IFR filght plan.

Thanks for your response, David Paul. I know how to use the ATC (sort of, I'm no expert, but I can use it.) and an IFR flight plan, but I'm used to using FMCs and the GPS in the Primary Flight Display on an aircraft such as the 767. I'm not, however, very well versed in old-style navigation without a GPS. I know the 727 comes with one, but the technology wasn't readily available at the time, so I would prefer not to use it.

Here's my flight: I have taken off at runway heading from Minneapolis (they vectored me to that heading and told me to maintain 10,000'). My next VOR (I'm flying VOR to VOR) is DWN. How do I reach the VOR without my GPS? I know I have to go at a heading of 222, but I wouldn't know when I've reached it and when to head to the next VOR. Oh, and I'll use manual navigation for this flight. Thanks!

For VOR navigation, first tune the NAV 1 radio to the frequency of the VOR.  You could turn on the "IDENT" listen on the communication source select panel to check the morse code identifier to verify you have tuned in the correct station, but I don't know if the CS 727 simulates this function.   Next, rotate the  course deviation indicator (CDI) on the horizontal situation indicator (HSI, compass looking gauge below the attitude direction indicator, ADI) to the desired course to the VOR.  Now you will get course deviation indications from the CDI needle on the HSI, and if the VOR has DME (distance measuring equipment) you will get a distance reading to the station on the upper left corner of the HSI and in the DME indicator window down and to the right.  

I recommend reading up on VOR navigation and/or doing the VOR tutorial that is in the FSX lessons section.

Now, I don't want to sound offensive in any way but a simple search on the net will help you there. VOR navigation isn't a flight sim special, it's very basic knowledge for people connected to aviation, so you will find tons of tutorials, videos or just some simple descriptions on how stuff works and should be used. There were other people looking for this information before and there are surely more to come, so use what is already available. Even FSX itself has a learning center and will teach you things with some example flights too.
Maybe you can start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6_TAdjWd00 and watch out for more videos or just some Wikipedia explanation. That's the web, it's all there.  :)

Thanks a ton, audiohavoc!  ;D Finally I know what all those abbreviations mean (that's why it has taken me so long to learn this stuff, I didn't have a clue what they meant). Just one thing: what's the desired course? Is it the listed heading in your NavLog?

boeing247 wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 11:08pm:

Thanks a ton, audiohavoc!  ;D Finally I know what all those abbreviations mean (that's why it has taken me so long to learn this stuff, I didn't have a clue what they meant). Just one thing: what's the desired course? Is it the listed heading in your NavLog?

Yes, it is the heading in the NavLog or the heading determined by looking at a sectional chart.  

Okay, thanks to all who replied! I think I have it figured out. Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.  ;)

This is odd... I got everything working, but they course offset indicator says I'm too far right. I went further left and nothing changed (I checked the GPS and put myself too far left, which did nothing). What's happening?

boeing247 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 3:25am:

This is odd... I got everything working, but they course offset indicator says I'm too far right. I went further left and nothing changed (I checked the GPS and put myself too far left, which did nothing). What's happening?

You need to switch the Nav/GPS Switch to GPS so the Autopilot follows the the GPS flight plan(FS Flight Plan). I have assigned CTRL+SHIFT+N to the Nav/GPS Switch. I also added the default C172 Nav/GPS Switch and Annunciator to the 2D Autopilot panel. Like this:

[Window03]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=315,74
position=2
visible=0
ident=10005

gauge00=Captain_Sim.p721.P12!P12_001_ap, 17,0,298,74
gauge01=Cessna!Nav_GPS_Annunciator, 0,0,17,17
gauge02=Cessna!Nav GPS Switch, 0,17,17,17

Hope this helps.

Mark

boeing247 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 3:25am:

This is odd... I got everything working, but they course offset indicator says I'm too far right. I went further left and nothing changed (I checked the GPS and put myself too far left, which did nothing). What's happening?

If you are talking about the segment of the CDI indicator arrow on the HSI showing to the right of the course arrow, that means you have deviated to the left of the course and must fly to the right of the specified heading/course until the segment begins moving to left to align with the CDI arrow.  If it is showing to the left of the CDI arrow, you have deviated to the right of the course and must turn left to intercept.

That's the thing--It was showing that I had veered to the right. I moved [drastically] left and nothing changed.

Quote:

I moved [drastically] left and nothing changed.

Above a certain offset (should be 10 degrees), the instrument shows you its max deflection of the needle, so you can't see if you are 10 or 70 degrees off for example. This might explain the reaction after "correcting" your course in the way you describe it.

Maybe you want to believe me that the whole navigation thing in aviation is a big (and interesting) book, including some knowledge and maths, together with some rules to learn.
Personally, I get the impression that you've read about two lines of that thick book and though "ah, that must be it, lets fly then", letting this nice book fall back to the floor and entering the cockpit. No offence intended.
We all had (or still have) to start on this topic, that's what makes the flying interesting since you can train and try all kinds of things in the sim. Now, the training comes from actually understanding what is happening. The Learning Center of FSX stays a tip (hint, hint).

So I really, really recommend reading some things after feeding e. g. Google with your interest in "VOR Navigation". For the people who don't like to read, videos will cover the whole thing too, so there actually is quite some stuff to enjoy while the current technique of trial and error together with the short explanations possible in forum posts won't lead to a good end, but a fragmented and diffuse one.  :) The topic gets described on every good aviation site, no need to copy it into the CS forums as if it was something newly discovered.

If you're up to reading a bit, here's a useful link to enjoy some free available sources. http://www.flightsimbooks.com/

Sadly, the whole FMC driven planes in the sim are often used to let people start the wrong way. They jump in the 767, feed their computers to some extend and let the plane fly itself.
No real Pilot would start this way, they all go from the basics to the advanced things. You won't understand all advanced items until you haven't understood the basics which, for example, the navigation skills are.
I'm learning something new every day, so don't see me as some experienced guy there. But I'm at least aware of where to start.  ;)

Concerning your very special problem (which will be just one in the whole chapter, which isn't a problem of course), it would help to determine which Course you are supposed to go and on which Course you are currently moving. So you can calculate an intercept heading, leading you to the desired Course (and therefore route) in the shortest amount of time.

Ok, here's some offence, but that one with  :P, so don't get upset.
# Part II — Instrument Flight

   * Chapter 10: The Hazards of Flying On Instruments Without Knowing How
http://www.flightsimbooks.com/flightsimhandbook/

Fellow pilots!

The 727 did not have GPS or INS!

This stuff came later, much later.

As I have said before, putting all this fancy nav stuff in the 727 is like putting the brain of a 16 year old in the body of an 80 year old.

Navigate by VOR to VOR - it works great! If you want to simulate the way it was, get out the old chart and plot it via the VOR's.

At 35,000 feet you can use the high level VOR's a long way.

All that automatic stuff is for sissy pilots!  ;D

Quote:

All that automatic stuff is for sissy pilots!

Call me sissy, please.  :D

VOR to VOR is great, but the online Controllers appreciate at least some ability to go for an intersection from time to time (at least for the Airliner guys), so my choice stays the also old (but too new for the original 727) INS then, where I can hack in some coordinates of somehow virtual (no station there) waypoints.
Yes, I could do some cross radial readings on the RMI, but that's a lot of work in busy skies (for me) and far away from accurate.
Also, the CS 727 needs a small update to get the FO's instruments working independently. Would be neat to have, the 707 shows how it's done.
Of course, the GPS would be in the newer and retrofitted 727s around and, in the sim, it also allows the very first steps into flying this classic plane.
While the FMC retrofitted variant sadly won't come alive in the sim, I personally can live with the not so original and "sissy"  :P GPS conversion from CS.
Most loved though? Going INS on her.  8-)

But learning VOR to VOR and all the things around it stays a tip in my eyes. Who would want to be fully dependent on a FMC together with a nice moving map all the time?
I'm having much fun when "guessing" my position with the steam gauges only and then seeing that I was right (or, sometimes, totally way out) about it when I connect the map for some seconds.


For the guys willing to learn and try some VOR Navigation, here's a neat site with an app on it, to "fly" your plane and then see how its position would look like on the instruments. http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
Looks small and harmless, but trains your mind if you are new to the thing like I am.

SISSY!  :D

OK, I called you a sissy.

Sure it's real easy to shoot around the sky with GPS or even INS, but the golden age of the 727, 707 did not have these wonderful things, yet we were able to find our way around the sky and even find intersections. No sissy pilots here!  ;D

My point is you can do a lot with just two VOR's and DME's to find any intersection on the chart. I realize that fancy moving maps are very cool, and I indeed loved them in the 767,757 but that was not available in the era of the 727, 707. Sure, it was added later, but CS is recreating the old gal as she was - steam and all! :P

Hey, LOU. That's what I've been trying to do, learn to operate the VOR stuff on the 727. Now, no offense to CoolP, who has been graciously providing me with links to tutorials, but I've read the entire VOR tutorial in FSX, so I know what I'm doing (to some extent, I'm no expert), but my CDI says I way off course to the left, even when I know (by cheating and looking at the GPS) that I'm way off-course to the right. What's going on?

Since I'm a Sissy now  ;D, I can't be offended in any way, boeing247. So don't worry there.

I think that you've missed the fact that your "needle" only shows some deviation while the direction of this deviation depends on your setup.
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4057/cdicoursedeviationindic.gif
from here http://aviationglossary.com/avionics-definition/cdi/
See that "Course" knob there (labelled "OBS" for Omni Bearing Selector)? Turn it and the deviation to the left will turn into one to the right (for example). Confusing? Well, only if you don't know where to go.
So watch that Course setting and then calculate or imagine (as you like) the real direction of your Course deviation. Keep in mind that, as said, the max amount of offset visible are +-10 degrees. So make sure to stay within this corridor.
How? Turn that knob and see which Course you are currently on (in relation to the tuned station) and then act like learned before (sorry, had to put in a vague motivation phrase there) to get to the Course you had planned to go as quickly as possible.

Since we are going for VORs on the 727, the Radio Magnetic Indicator (RMI) is a useful tool, showing you the current Bearing towards the tuned station, reducing your workload on that OBS knob. So you can spot the relative location of that station with just one view on the RMI.
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7853/rmin.jpg
Example: The Bearing of that VOR is shown by the green needle, currently 325. So if you would fly a heading of 325 now, without any influence of the winds, you will actually overfly that station.
Now, staying on the example, if you set your Course needle to 325 (OBS knob!), it will show you the deviation from that inbound (towards the station) Course. Keep the needle centered and you will overfly the thing with a Course of 325 and thereafter continue on the 325 radial from it.
Nice navigation there!
Catching a special Course in relation to that station is another thing and takes some more room to explain, but .. the Net is awaiting you with all its beauty and wealth of information.  ;)

The FSX Learning Center (did you read What You Need to Know about VOR there? Really?) is just the very beginning of the Navigation story. Lou can tell since this chapter (together with meteorology) surely wasn't a shorter one of his career I think. But I doubt that he used FSX to learn it.  :P


But hey, I've found something to give you a moral lift.
There's a guy who collects all real world mishaps concerning the navigation thingy. So he has set up a list with documented landings (or at least attempts to) at the wrong airport.
See here "Wrong Way" Landings By Commercial Airliners (http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html)

There's a huge list and one entry is

Quote:

July 4, 1967 - A TWA 707, bound for Columbus, Ohio, mistakenly lands at Don Scott Field at Ohio State University. Link. See also Bob Thomas, "Columbus Recollections: From Stunt to Kangaroo, Aviation Has Rich History," Columbus Dispatch, January 5, 1997.

I'm looking at you, Lou.  :o (just kidding though, but maybe you know something about it or you can describe what the companies think of such "funny" things.)
"Well, Son, that was a really nice landing there but please try to catch the right location next time."  ;D

boeing247 wrote on Mar 14^th, 2011 at 3:02am:

Hey, LOU. That's what I've been trying to do, learn to operate the VOR stuff on the 727. Now, no offense to CoolP, who has been graciously providing me with links to tutorials, but I've read the entire VOR tutorial in FSX, so I know what I'm doing (to some extent, I'm no expert), but my CDI says I way off course to the left, even when I know (by cheating and looking at the GPS) that I'm way off-course to the right. What's going on?

Sorry if I am wrong but it sounds like you are confusing the indications of the CDI.  If the CDI bar is to the left of the course arrow, then you are too far to the right of the course and must turn left to intercept.  The course deviation indicator shows the direction of offset from the desired course relative to your current course.  General rule, if the bar is to the left, fly to the left, and when the bar is to the right of center, fly to the right to intercept.  Of course this is backwards when you are flying away from a VOR.

You can get to most intersections via VORs, DME and ADF only.  Sure a lot of modern SIDs and STARs are RNAV and need some sort of "modern" navigation, but if you are following an airway, when you get to a given DME and/or cross-radial on a different VOR, then you are at an intersection.  

Personally, this is what I love about the 727 is that its old school.  Flew a flight from Miami to TNCM using airways and VOR.  I've even disabled the keyboard shortcut to the GPS.  I don't want to be tempted.  

As for the comment about online controllers, they should deal with you.  You're not required to have a GPS in the real world, and they should accept a non-RNAV capable plane.  

CoolP, once again you hit the nail right on the head with your VOR post above.

I'm just about to sit down to supper, but I'll try to post a simple quick review soon of how to get from A to B via VOR's only!

Lou

Thanks, Lou.  :-[

Did you read that (short) story about the TWA 707 there? Who of you guys was that and what did the management say back then?  :D

A quick look at VOR navigation.

The VOR is a very handy tool to find your way around the sky.

Try to visualize a lighthouse with a beam that spins at 1 RPM. Every time the light beam passes magnetic north there is a bright flash of light to tell you that it is pointing at north. As you look at the lighthouse and see the bright flash you start a stop watch. When the rotating beam of light points to you, observe the stop watch. For this example let's say you see the beam go by you at 15 seconds. You are at 90 degrees from north at 15 seconds, or another way of saying this would be that you are on the 090 degree radial from the lighthouse station.

To go to the lighthouse you would need to track the 15 second (090 degree radial.) If you start to see the watch showing 17 or 18 seconds as the beam passed your position you would be drifting left of course. Does this make sense? If it does, you are starting to visualize how the VOR works.

Here are some things you need to keep in mind...
1. RADIALS radiate from the station.
2. You cannot fly into a radial!  :-?

When you fly using the VOR the OBS and the Compass must be almost the same.

In the example of the lighthouse, above, you are on the 15 second radial which we need to change to degrees so you can use this example and apply it to VOR's. In order to fly TO the lighthouse (VOR) your OBS selection and compass must agree. So the OBS would be set to 270 degrees and now you can fly TO the VOR with to-the-needle sensing. Remember - RADIALS radiate FROM the station. You cannot fly into the station - backwards - on that 090 degree radial because the display on your instrument will be reversed. So, you must dial in the reciprocating or opposite radial so you will get proper needle display. To fly backwards on the radial is called dragging the needle.

Now if I have not made you completely lost here is a look at a typical trip using some VOR's.

The VOR's for this trip are named A, B, C & D. Our trip starts at an airport called Mark's Farm (MARKOZ) not far from VOR-A. We are the GREEN plane. To get to the VOR is easy. Just tune and identify the VOR station. Turn the OBS until the needle centers with a TO indication. The number in the OBS will show you the RECIPROCATING radial, the one on the other side of the VOR. Now, if you just fly that heading you will fly to the station. As you fly, you will need to correct for wind drift. If the plane drifts left of course the needle will move to the right showing you where the selected course is. Make a small correction for the wind. As you near the station the needle will get sensitive and move around quickly. Don't chase the needle, just fly your heading. When you cross the station you will be in the cone of confusion. To fly outbound from station A you will need to fly the 110 degree radial. Dial the OBS so it reads 110 and turn to that heading. If you know the wind already, you can apply a correction to your heading, or just see what the needle says. As you passed over the station, the TO/FROM indicator flipped to FROM showing station passage.

You can follow the trip using the colored planes to see the display in the VOR indicators on the right side of the drawing. I put in the purple plane to show that flying the wrong way will give you the opposite needle indication. If you flip the purple plane to the inbound course, the indicator is correct.

http://home.comcast.net/~lou.lynn/vor-2.jpg

The intersections of HEAVY and LIGHT are made from the radials of VOR D or by the DME from the noted VOR's.

I hope this helps you to understand how to go from VOR to VOR.

Lou

CoolP,

I remember that night. There is no defense for landing at the wrong airport with all the radio aids available.

The plane was not very heavy, but it used all the runway!  :o

To get the plane out they had to remove all the seats and just leave enough fuel to get it over to KCMH.

The young gas boy at the airport was really surprised that night!  ;D

I also remember a DELTA 767 landed at Isla Grande Airport in San Juan, PR.
I think the runway is around 5,000 feet and at least five miles from the big airport in San Juan.
It took hours to get the people off the plane because there were no stairs at this little airport and
they could not use the hi-way to get the stairs from the big airport because the overpasses were too low.

DELTA became known as Don't Ever Land There Again!

Lou

Hey, thanks, LOU! That should be a HUGE help!  ;D

Great tutorial there, Lou. Although I can only repeat that most of this stuff can be found easily on the Net (so no need to set up extra tutorials unless you have fun producing them), this was fun to read.
"Mark's Farm" definitely is a place to visit.  :)


I'm impressed that you remember that TWA 707 flight landing at the wrong spot.
Reading the outcome with the removing of the seats and stuff, it doesn't sound like fun, safety-wise and for the Pilots later, having to argue with their management.
While I would laugh my a.. off when this happens to me in the Sim (it actually did some time ago), the real world thing isn't that funny. Pros on the yokes and such things happening?  >:(

But, as I watched another cockpt video lately, they've approached Seattle (KSEA) and made jokes about the warnings on the charts to not mix up Boeing Field with SeaTac.
I think that was a 2009 flight, so the information seems somehow current.
In clear weather though, the danger seems to be manageable.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4699/kseaapp.th.jpg
See Boeing Field in the front and KSEA (the planned app on 16C) in the background there.
As you say, when the navaids are operational, there's no good explanation for landing on the wrong field.

Also, the KSEA charts clearly warn crews about not to land on the Taxiway ("Tango" in this case), so, at least in bad weather, someone might have tried before.  :D
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/663/taxiwaytango.th.jpg

Concerning the landing (and later departure) from "too" short runways, I've read this one and had to laugh again.

Quote:

sumbitch flew in, sumbitch'll fly out

Seems like the no-seats variant of this 707 referred to it.  ;D

CoolP wrote:
In clear weather though, the danger seems to be manageable.

You would think, however that is when these stupid things happen. In IMC you would be forced to set the radios and keep a sharp eye on where the plane is. At least that is the way it's planed. On a beautiful VFR day you tend to relax and that is setting you up for a bite in the butt.

We had a crew ferry a 707 down to Mexico to bring back a charter group. Just the cockpit and cabin crew were on the plane. It was a bit hazy but for the most part a nice day. When the flight was switched from approach to tower, the tower cleared the flight to land. Now the bite in the butt!

Your in the middle of the jungle, it's a bit hazy and your cleared to land at an airport you never set eyes on. Oh no! :o  

The pilots looked out the window and guess what they saw just a few miles ahead...... a runway! But did they look over the approach chart really well before the descent? My guess is NO! The airport of intended landing was ahead about 10 miles away. What they saw was an old crop duster field that was aligned almost the same as the distant airport of intended landing.

They were cleared to land

They looked out the window and there was the runway - so let's land!

Well, just about the time they went into the flare it dawned on them that this was maybe a bit narrow, and maybe a bit short, and maybe the wrong place, and this is what is called in the business - an oh s#%t moment!

Well, they got the old gal stopped and looked around. Engines one & four inlets were green from all the grass they slid through. After the "moment" passed, they thought about what they could do to extract themselves from their situation. They kept cool and shut down engines 1 & 4. The F/E went out the tunnel in the cockpit and exited the plane via the E&E door, just behind the nose wheel. The F/E was able to find some very surprised locals whom he hired to use machetes to clear the grass from the side of the runway. He was able to get a ladder and the cabin team was taken off the plane and sent over via ground transport to the "real" airport. After clearing all the grass out of the outboard engines, and seeing no damage just green stain, one & four were started. They looked OK. The captain carefully (too late now) turned the plane around and after the F/E got back on board, blasted off for the proper airport.

Now remember this is early 70's maybe late 60's. They checked out the plane with the local mechanics and determined her fit to go, so they put the people on and off they went. Well as you can guess, all hell broke out when the chief pilot got them into his office. But, if they had not flown the old gal out by themselves they would never have received permission from the FAA and the plane would still be there as some tropical bar.

So the moral of the story... SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Don't get complacent. Because you know the old bite in the butt is just around the corner. These guys were very lucky. It could have been a disaster. You never know, so keep alert. When I was doing flight instruction in the airlines, my students would sometimes ask; How do you know when not to do something? My advice, use the sphincter as your guide. If it is not comfortable, don't do it! Also, ask yourself - Can I defend this action at the hearing?  :-/

More of those stories, Lou. Really enjoy reading them.  :)

After thinking about it, you are so right with the IMC/VMC stuff. That confidence from actually seeing something may override any doubt which would only show up on your instruments.
That's the thing about staying ahead of the plane, huh?

I was just surprised to hear about these warning notes on rw charts at e. g. KSEA to please land on the right spot.
Since this is a busy and "fast" area too, they will have their reasons to put up such warnings.
But, Boeing Field in that case won't be the same ballgame as your example of course. Easy to get out of there, otherwise they can use the road instead.  :D

You name it, Situational Awareness is the key there and I'm still training on it. If anybody would come up with the question why "glass" was implemented in modern cockpits, this will be one, if not the answer there of course.
Every GA flyer with a G1000 or something can tell that this "glass" in front of you, when operated the right way, really enhances safety just be the ease of accessing and seeing some vital information.

When I got my instrument ticket, my CFII was insistent on practicing the IFR to VFR transition, as many of the major "D'OH" moments, like landing on a taxiway or the airport access road come when someone pops out of the scmoo on approach is confused and promptly lands on the taxiway.  You'll likely live, but the FAA wil be unhappy.  

Glass or a moving map is one of the best safety tools ever!

Lou,

I was planing to buy 24" monitor for FSX. I just noticed you have 40" monitor.
Does  40" monitor  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

THX

Sanal

Sanal,

I have tried several different monitor configurations. I had a 2 & 3 monitor set-up but I did not like the space between the screens. Monitors without the bezel are too expensive. I settled on this 40" Samsung HD TV and I am very happy. The picture is in perfect proportion as a 16X9 aspect ratio. It was cheap since it is only 60 Hz vs 120 Hz. I run the video at max resolution of 1920X1080X32. I did look at some high resolution monitors, but they are still very $$$ expensive and small.

Look around, you can find some low prices on large screen LCD's at the slower Hz.

Lou

Lou.

Thank you for your reply.

"I run the video at max resolution of 1920X1080X32"

Does  max resolution of 1920X1080X32"  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

Sanal

No, as I said above the 16X9 aspect ratio is perfect for FSX.

Thank you.

A guy having flown the real 747 can only go big then.  :D

CoolP, now you know that size matters!  :o

And I thought my 24" HDMI LCD Monitor was big! I use 1920x1080x32 resolution and all my aircraft look great. Somehow, I don't think a 40" HDTV would fit on my large computer desk, because I have too much stuff (junk) on it!

Mark

Ok, guys, now that we're off topic I'd like to report that, after using my Civa planes for numerous flights, I jumped in one of the FMC driven ones again, just to catch the difference.
Wow, that was like replacing a Windows PC with a NES. Just put in the cartridge and start the game.

Speed bug settings? FMC driven. Tuning the right VORs for flying the Departure procedure? FMC driven. Following altitude constraints by doing some maths? FMC driven. Updating your nav sources to stay accurate? You name it.
Coming from the steam gauged 727/707 things and entering a modern plane means that you enable power and press "go!".  ;D
What a difference! Boring, but relaxing on the first try (after some time of absence), I must admit.  :P

What!!!,You don't like steam engines.I'm devasted! :'(
Ron

I actually love the steamliners, but switching the seats from time to time shows you what was achieved in case of systems and safety.  :)