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 25 Navigation (Read 27786 times)
LOU
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Re: Navigation
Reply #30 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 3:02am
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CoolP,

I remember that night. There is no defense for landing at the wrong airport with all the radio aids available.

The plane was not very heavy, but it used all the runway!  Shocked

To get the plane out they had to remove all the seats and just leave enough fuel to get it over to KCMH.

The young gas boy at the airport was really surprised that night!  Grin

I also remember a DELTA 767 landed at Isla Grande Airport in San Juan, PR.
I think the runway is around 5,000 feet and at least five miles from the big airport in San Juan.
It took hours to get the people off the plane because there were no stairs at this little airport and
they could not use the hi-way to get the stairs from the big airport because the overpasses were too low.

DELTA became known as Don't Ever Land There Again!

Lou
  

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boeing247
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Re: Navigation
Reply #31 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 4:33am
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Hey, thanks, LOU! That should be a HUGE help!  Grin
  

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CoolP
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Re: Navigation
Reply #32 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 5:48pm
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Great tutorial there, Lou. Although I can only repeat that most of this stuff can be found easily on the Net (so no need to set up extra tutorials unless you have fun producing them), this was fun to read.
"Mark's Farm" definitely is a place to visit.  Smiley


I'm impressed that you remember that TWA 707 flight landing at the wrong spot.
Reading the outcome with the removing of the seats and stuff, it doesn't sound like fun, safety-wise and for the Pilots later, having to argue with their management.
While I would laugh my a.. off when this happens to me in the Sim (it actually did some time ago), the real world thing isn't that funny. Pros on the yokes and such things happening?  Angry

But, as I watched another cockpt video lately, they've approached Seattle (KSEA) and made jokes about the warnings on the charts to not mix up Boeing Field with SeaTac.
I think that was a 2009 flight, so the information seems somehow current.
In clear weather though, the danger seems to be manageable.

See Boeing Field in the front and KSEA (the planned app on 16C) in the background there.
As you say, when the navaids are operational, there's no good explanation for landing on the wrong field.

Also, the KSEA charts clearly warn crews about not to land on the Taxiway ("Tango" in this case), so, at least in bad weather, someone might have tried before.  Cheesy


Concerning the landing (and later departure) from "too" short runways, I've read this one and had to laugh again.
Quote:
sumbitch flew in, sumbitch'll fly out

Seems like the no-seats variant of this 707 referred to it.  Grin
  
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LOU
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Re: Navigation
Reply #33 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:25pm
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CoolP wrote:
In clear weather though, the danger seems to be manageable.

You would think, however that is when these stupid things happen. In IMC you would be forced to set the radios and keep a sharp eye on where the plane is. At least that is the way it's planed. On a beautiful VFR day you tend to relax and that is setting you up for a bite in the butt.

We had a crew ferry a 707 down to Mexico to bring back a charter group. Just the cockpit and cabin crew were on the plane. It was a bit hazy but for the most part a nice day. When the flight was switched from approach to tower, the tower cleared the flight to land. Now the bite in the butt!

Your in the middle of the jungle, it's a bit hazy and your cleared to land at an airport you never set eyes on. Oh no! Shocked  

The pilots looked out the window and guess what they saw just a few miles ahead...... a runway! But did they look over the approach chart really well before the descent? My guess is NO! The airport of intended landing was ahead about 10 miles away. What they saw was an old crop duster field that was aligned almost the same as the distant airport of intended landing.

They were cleared to land

They looked out the window and there was the runway - so let's land!

Well, just about the time they went into the flare it dawned on them that this was maybe a bit narrow, and maybe a bit short, and maybe the wrong place, and this is what is called in the business - an oh s#%t moment!

Well, they got the old gal stopped and looked around. Engines one & four inlets were green from all the grass they slid through. After the "moment" passed, they thought about what they could do to extract themselves from their situation. They kept cool and shut down engines 1 & 4. The F/E went out the tunnel in the cockpit and exited the plane via the E&E door, just behind the nose wheel. The F/E was able to find some very surprised locals whom he hired to use machetes to clear the grass from the side of the runway. He was able to get a ladder and the cabin team was taken off the plane and sent over via ground transport to the "real" airport. After clearing all the grass out of the outboard engines, and seeing no damage just green stain, one & four were started. They looked OK. The captain carefully (too late now) turned the plane around and after the F/E got back on board, blasted off for the proper airport.

Now remember this is early 70's maybe late 60's. They checked out the plane with the local mechanics and determined her fit to go, so they put the people on and off they went. Well as you can guess, all hell broke out when the chief pilot got them into his office. But, if they had not flown the old gal out by themselves they would never have received permission from the FAA and the plane would still be there as some tropical bar.

So the moral of the story... SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Don't get complacent. Because you know the old bite in the butt is just around the corner. These guys were very lucky. It could have been a disaster. You never know, so keep alert. When I was doing flight instruction in the airlines, my students would sometimes ask; How do you know when not to do something? My advice, use the sphincter as your guide. If it is not comfortable, don't do it! Also, ask yourself - Can I defend this action at the hearing?  Undecided
  

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Re: Navigation
Reply #34 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:58pm
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More of those stories, Lou. Really enjoy reading them.  Smiley

After thinking about it, you are so right with the IMC/VMC stuff. That confidence from actually seeing something may override any doubt which would only show up on your instruments.
That's the thing about staying ahead of the plane, huh?

I was just surprised to hear about these warning notes on rw charts at e. g. KSEA to please land on the right spot.
Since this is a busy and "fast" area too, they will have their reasons to put up such warnings.
But, Boeing Field in that case won't be the same ballgame as your example of course. Easy to get out of there, otherwise they can use the road instead.  Cheesy

You name it, Situational Awareness is the key there and I'm still training on it. If anybody would come up with the question why "glass" was implemented in modern cockpits, this will be one, if not the answer there of course.
Every GA flyer with a G1000 or something can tell that this "glass" in front of you, when operated the right way, really enhances safety just be the ease of accessing and seeing some vital information.
  
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Re: Navigation
Reply #35 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 8:42pm
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When I got my instrument ticket, my CFII was insistent on practicing the IFR to VFR transition, as many of the major "D'OH" moments, like landing on a taxiway or the airport access road come when someone pops out of the scmoo on approach is confused and promptly lands on the taxiway.  You'll likely live, but the FAA wil be unhappy.
  
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Re: Navigation
Reply #36 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 9:22pm
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Glass or a moving map is one of the best safety tools ever!
  

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Re: Navigation
Reply #37 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 4:02am
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Lou,

I was planing to buy 24" monitor for FSX. I just noticed you have 40" monitor.
Does  40" monitor  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

THX

Sanal
  
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LOU
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Re: Navigation
Reply #38 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 2:26pm
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Sanal,

I have tried several different monitor configurations. I had a 2 & 3 monitor set-up but I did not like the space between the screens. Monitors without the bezel are too expensive. I settled on this 40" Samsung HD TV and I am very happy. The picture is in perfect proportion as a 16X9 aspect ratio. It was cheap since it is only 60 Hz vs 120 Hz. I run the video at max resolution of 1920X1080X32. I did look at some high resolution monitors, but they are still very $$$ expensive and small.

Look around, you can find some low prices on large screen LCD's at the slower Hz.

Lou
  

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Re: Navigation
Reply #39 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 2:53pm
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Lou.

Thank you for your reply.

"I run the video at max resolution of 1920X1080X32"

Does  max resolution of 1920X1080X32"  elongate  727 instrument gauges   ?

Sanal



  
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LOU
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Re: Navigation
Reply #40 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 3:00pm
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No, as I said above the 16X9 aspect ratio is perfect for FSX.
  

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Re: Navigation
Reply #41 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 3:16pm
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Thank you.
  
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Re: Navigation
Reply #42 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 5:57pm
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A guy having flown the real 747 can only go big then.  Cheesy
  
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LOU
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Re: Navigation
Reply #43 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 8:06pm
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CoolP, now you know that size matters!  Shocked
  

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Re: Navigation
Reply #44 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 11:01pm
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And I thought my 24" HDMI LCD Monitor was big! I use 1920x1080x32 resolution and all my aircraft look great. Somehow, I don't think a 40" HDTV would fit on my large computer desk, because I have too much stuff (junk) on it!

Mark
  

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