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 25 Lou - STORIES (Read 915111 times)
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #165 - May 11th, 2011 at 3:19am
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But also, it depend on the plane too. If you're in a 747, oen engine out means you still have 75% power of before. So you'll have a better chance than a 777, with 50% power gone, and have lost tha much of yoru lfyign ability. If you're in say an MD-11 or 727 you still have 66% percent of power so you might make it off. Wheras a single is simple. How much braking force can I put down? But you also have reached the takeoff poitn at 10-kts before V1, as by teh tiem an engine fails its too late. But also, if you have failure before V1, you'll stop before teh end of the runway, if not, you're not correctly configured.  One must consider too, if i abort takeoff, and i overrun the runway, what will I hit?

Also, Lou TWA only had 747-100s right?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #166 - May 11th, 2011 at 4:29am
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If this was a normal flight out of KJFK on a departure in the hot summer with a 3 or 4 mile taxi at max takeoff weight and having to abort just before V-1, I would bet it would be pretty exciting to say the least! Brake fires, panicked people opening doors and sliding down into hot brake fire with maybe fluid leaks causing even more fire... well, you get the picture.

Here's a few things that Joe Sutter said about break fires on the 747-100 during the aborted takeoff testing:  Smiley

"Those brakes would get so hot they'd catch fire, ruining the tires. The heat would have exploded them except that aircraft wheel rims are designed with built-in fuse plugs. These melt in high heat, safely releasing the tire's pressure to avoid a hazardous explosion."

     "Cringing at the squeal of tortured brakes, I focused on the careening jumbo jet's wheel hubs. They began to glow a dull red. This rapidly became bright orange and continued to intensify as the jet stopped short with an abruptness that said tremendous forces were at play. Flames broke out in its wheel bogeys.
     "I sweated out the interminable five minutes until the FAA regulations said hoses could be brought to bear..."

(From 747, which is a great book)  Wink
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #167 - May 11th, 2011 at 10:10pm
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I thought flying was all about fun.  Cheesy Thanks for your answers, guys.

What was your strategy then, Lou? Remember any aborted takeoff with some of the mentioned factors included?
I could think of some parts of the pilot thinking 'I hope we get way over V1' (to avoid the need for a decision) while the other parts focus on at least some of the various variables which should be taken into account if something happens below that calculated speed.

Also, we're not speaking about minutes to decide as the plane doesn't stop acceleration when "just" one engine or thing gets into some red limits. So I can see some of the decisions being made as either purely experience driven or done by some magical coin being thrown in milliseconds.
It could well be that some NTSB records show the statistical (only) conclusion that 'get airborne' is the safest way to go when the plane is close to MTOW.
Decision making, that's actually the hard part of the pilot's job, right? They will take him as the one being in responsibility.

Also, as a side note, but not to be read as 'playing smart', those twin engine commercial birds are highly overpowered (looking at the overall available thrust and the weight of the plane) and the simple equation of '50% loss' only shows some relative values, not overall ones.
The requirement is to be able to continue takeoff and climbout with one engine failure at MTOW. Means that the 4 engine ones have to be able to go on 3 and the two engine ones can go with one.
So the 'overpower value' is much bigger on the twins than on the quads.

This lead to the biggest jet engines on a commercial plane, which aren't attached to those big 747 or A380 but can be found on the biggest twin, the 777. One engine of that thing offers more thrust than 8 from the B-52. And the BUFF isn't a lightweight plane at all.
So those 50% thrust from the 777 are, in absolute numbers, a whole bunch of power to operate safely while two of them running gives you a nice climber, like seen on e. g. the 757 too, following the same twin-safety-concept.

When going back to relative values again, we need 3 engines to achieve 100% 'safe available thrust' on e. g. a 747 and 1 engine to do the same on a 777.
If we now add the real amount of engines, we can see 133% 'safe available thrust' being there when all 4 are running on the 747 and 200% when the two of the 777 do this.
Feel free to do the calculations for the BUFF now.  Cheesy
(the requirement doesn't apply there of course)
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #168 - May 12th, 2011 at 2:08am
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CoolP, once again you have hit the nail on the head!

Forget the engine failure as the reason for the abort. Lets say we are going down the runway at near MTOW and as we near V1 we hear a bang and feel a slight yaw. What do YOU do? What happened? Was it a compressor stall? Was it a bird strike? Or maybe was it a blown tire?

Think about it for a few seconds.....

In real life you don't have a few seconds, do you?

Lets say the rear outboard tire on the left truck just blew. You are 20 knots below V1 but building speed fast. Now it's just about V1 - do you continue or abort? What happened? Can you continue? Should you try to stop? There is no Monday morning here my friends. The Oh SH%T period is very short indeed.

Ok, you elect to continue the takeoff. The tire failed at about 20 knots below V1, but it took you a few seconds to make a choice. During that time the mate on the other side of the axle which had to take the load also gave up the ghost. [ This is what they sometimes do! ] Now the left truck has lost both tires on the aft section and the other tires are working very hard to take the load. The drag is increased since the two dead tires are not working. BOOM, the front outboard tire fails and the plane begins to yaw. You are just about at V1 when the last tire on the left truck goes bang and leaves the wheel flying out toward the front. The tire carcass is ingested into the left engine causing catastrophic failure of the left engine. Humm, now what do you do? Will the plane continue to gain speed toward VR? Did the loss of the truck cause so much drag as to cause the plane to leave the runway? Are all the hydraulics still intact? Will she fly?

How about if you elected to abort at the first bang? With the above conditions, will you have the ability to stop?

Food for thought....  Undecided

CoolP, you are right, the two engine plane may well do better than its multi-engined brother. As you can see, there is always something else to think about.

Flying is hours and hours of sheer boredom... punctuated by moments of stark terror!

That's why pilots get the big bucks!  Grin

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #169 - May 12th, 2011 at 2:39am
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Hey, Lou. I would imagine that if there was an engine failure on takeoff, you would just circle around and land,  Wink but what are some possible failures that you would continue on to the destination airport with?  
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #170 - May 12th, 2011 at 8:40am
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You name it, Lou. Tons of dependencies, all of them associated with a "clear" 'maybe it fails, maybe not, maybe it does severe damage, maybe not'.

Nice read by the way, especially when really stressing that your written examples all happen within few seconds or less time. The industry works hard to reduce actual workload, but it can't and won't rule out the decision maker, which is the human mind in the cockpit.
If he decides to abort, the systems help him (autobrake, antiskid, automatic Spoilers, engine FADEC), if he decides to continue, they will too (still FADEC, yaw compensation for failed engines, corrected AT speed for 'one engine out' climb, speed tape showing flap and manoeuvring limits, and so on), but he has to decide what action will take place.

So you are once again right, that's why they get the big bucks, and we all know which a.. gets kicked first when they fail to decide right. Sad story sometimes is, that they've set up their own fate and all others then wonder what lead to this or that decision and reaction.
Good point to look at that AF plane again, I hope they find a clue why it crashed.  Undecided
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #171 - May 12th, 2011 at 8:20pm
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boeing247 wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 4:29am:
(From 747, which is a great book)  Wink

Ah, I thought that sounded familiar, and yes, it is a great book.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #172 - May 12th, 2011 at 9:08pm
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Boeing247: Hey, Lou. I would imagine that if there was an engine failure on takeoff, you would just circle around and land,   but what are some possible failures that you would continue on to the destination airport with?

You may or may not just circle and land. You might be too heavy and need to dump fuel - that takes time. The weather could be below landing limits and you need to go to your takeoff alternate. A 4 engine plane could continue, but you better make sure everything else is working. A pilot should never make a decision about safety thinking about what the "company" wants. A while back a 747, I think BA, took off from KLAX bound for EGLL.
They had an engine fail on takeoff, but elected to continue to destination. The pilot took a lot of heat for the decision to continue because he was pressured by the company to "go" because of the expense of putting up all the passengers. It worked out since he made it although he was very late because he had to fly at reduced speed, but can you imagine what would have happened if he had to divert to some northern Canadian emergency field with another engine failure. My decision in something like that was - could I defend this at the hearing?

Kuujjuaq CYVP is one of the northern Canadian emergency fields. EMERGENCY is the operative word! How would you like to have to land there on a cold winter night on two engines?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #173 - May 13th, 2011 at 2:30am
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I certainly wouldn't want to be a passenger on that plane, especially as you're going over the Atlantic.  Wink

Did you ever have any experiences like that?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #174 - May 13th, 2011 at 2:31am
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fs_addict wrote on May 12th, 2011 at 8:20pm:
boeing247 wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 4:29am:
(From 747, which is a great book)  Wink

Ah, I thought that sounded familiar, and yes, it is a great book.


Did you watch the debut of the 747-8i? Joe Sutter was in the front row.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #175 - May 13th, 2011 at 8:10pm
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boeing247 wrote on May 13th, 2011 at 2:31am:
fs_addict wrote on May 12th, 2011 at 8:20pm:
boeing247 wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 4:29am:
(From 747, which is a great book)  Wink

Ah, I thought that sounded familiar, and yes, it is a great book.


Did you watch the debut of the 747-8i? Joe Sutter was in the front row.

Yeah, I saw that!
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #176 - May 14th, 2011 at 12:38am
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That was pretty cool to see.  Smiley
  

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Lou - STORIES - Ocean Station Charlie
Reply #177 - May 19th, 2011 at 5:39pm
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In the early days of crossing the north Atlantic using Doppler and low frequency navigation there were many times a precise fix was hard to come by. To aid in the process, the government placed some poor Coast Guard kids out in the north Atlantic and Pacific to help planes and ships make the crossing. I used to get such a kick out of giving these folks a call and hearing how cheerful they were, even though they were getting pounded by rough seas and wind. There were three ships on the east side of the Atlantic ocean that we would talk to, Alpha, Bravo and Charlie. They would try to radar identify you and then give you a fix based on where they thought they were in the ocean. We would send them a Met Report of the winds at our altitude, sky condition and temperature. We had a chart on the plane with a grid system and would use it to plot the fix. It was better than we could do sometimes if the Doppler was not giving a good fix. All this fun ended around 1980.

Fast forward to the late 80’s. Back in the good old days, when flying was fun and more relaxed, I flew with a Captain named Bernie Dunn. We would say, “flying is fun with Bernie Dunn.” Here we are in a 747 crossing the ocean with state-of-the-art INS navigation and Bernie wants to have some fun. He instructs the F/O to give ocean station Charlie a call and get a fix. Now we know full well that these ships have been gone for almost a decade, but it’s time for fun.

The message goes out on the common north Atlantic frequency...” Ocean Station Charlie, Ocean Station Charlie, this is TWA 700 – OVER! No response. After a few minutes we repeat the message... Ocean Station Charlie, Ocean Station Charlie, this is TWA 700 – OVER! The hook is set! After a few seconds comes a reply on the frequency. TWA 700, this is THE CLIPPER 2, there are no ocean stations! With that, Bernie gets on his radio and cups his mouth over the microphone and says... TWA 700 This is Ocean Station Charlie, go ahead with your Met Report. Needless to say everyone on the common radio frequency let loose with roars of laughter at the expense of “THE CLIPPER.”

Lou

More reading...

http://www.uscg.mil/history/webcutters/rpdinsmore_oceanstations.asp
http://www.noreasterpress.com/books/OceanStation.php
This is a cool book with a lot of data...
http://www.archive.org/stream/northatlanticoce00hann#page/n1/mode/2up

  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #178 - May 20th, 2011 at 1:01am
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Nice read, Lou. Could it be that 'flying is fun with Lou' too?  Smiley
I will try that Ocean Station Charlie call next time on Vatsim.  Grin (currently, I'm closer to Bravo though)

Say, did you have any celebrities on board during your decades of flying? Did you shake Sinatra's hand?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #179 - May 22nd, 2011 at 12:02am
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CoolP asked if I had Any celebrities on any of my flights?

Over forty years I had a few movie stars and politicians. David Niven, back in the sixties along with a few politicians. I flew Neil Armstrong one time. he was very interesting to talk with. I flew Michael Jackson not once, but twice. Michael would take up all the first class seats with his group. I also had one of Michael's sisters on a flight. Jack Nicholson, Richard Dreyfus, Lisa Minelli, Spiro T. Agnew, John Ashcroft. I flew Chuck Berry twice, once to Lisbon and another time to Saint Louis, both out of KJFK. We also used to fly the Saint Louis Rams football team in a special 727 with a Ram paint job by Nath!  Grin

There were more, but at this time I do not remember who they were.

Lou
  

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