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 25 Engine Start Problems (Read 52989 times)
Alberto
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Engine Start Problems
Oct 3rd, 2010 at 2:10pm
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Hi!

Recentrly I have buy the 07, now I have installed the INS Sistem.

But, for Align it, I need to turn off the engine, and I do it simply to CUTOFF the fuel control.

But, When I follow the instructions in the forum post, I can't star it!

I follow all correclty.. but nothing!

Som help please?  Cry
  

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Markoz
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #1 - Oct 3rd, 2010 at 2:35pm
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Firstly. I take it that you are loading the 707 with the engines already started then?

Secondly. There is a "procedure" to starting the 707. At first I couldn't always get it started. Now I start them first time, every time.

Here is what I do:

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power ON. External Air ON.

FE PANEL
Battery.....ON
External Power.....ON or Ground Service (I usually just place the switch to the ON position)
DC Meters Selector.....TR ESS
Essential Power Source Selector.....EXT PWR
AC Paralleling Selector.....EXTERNAL POWER
All 4 Engine Bleed Air switches.....ON
Wing Valves.....OPEN
Left & Right Air-Conditioning Unit Pack Switches.....ON

CONTROL STAND
Engine Start Levers....START/IDLE (CTRL+SHIFT+F4)

OVERHEAD PANEL
GRD START....LOW PRESS
Engine Start Control #3...GRD      After engine #3 starts repeat for engines #4, #1 & #2

FE PANEL
DC Meters Selector.....TR3
Essential Power Source Selector.....GEN 3
AC Paralleling Selector.....GEN 3
External Power.....OFF
Galley Power.....ON

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power OFF. External Air OFF.

That should get your engines started for now. I quite often wait for N2 to reach 15-20 before switching the Engine Start Levers to START/IDLE .

Hope this helps.

Mark

EDIT Oct 3rd, 2010 at 4:29pm: Moved External Power.....OFF to the correct order of the procedure as pointed out by Alberto! Thanks.
EDIT2 Oct 6th, 2010 at 7:45am: Added the Left & Right Air-Conditioning Unit Pack Switches.....ON into the start-up procedure. I somehow thought that they and the Wing Valves were the same switches. Sorry. Sad
  

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Alberto
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #2 - Oct 3rd, 2010 at 3:15pm
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tanks mark, in some minuts I will try and say you.

Where I can set to  start 07 in dark and cold?
  

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Alberto
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #3 - Oct 3rd, 2010 at 3:32pm
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Mark!! tanks!!!!

Very tanks!! now it work perfectly!!!
  

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Alberto
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #4 - Oct 3rd, 2010 at 3:36pm
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Markoz wrote on Oct 3rd, 2010 at 2:35pm:
Firstly. I take it that you are loading the 707 with the engines already started then?

Secondly. There is a "procedure" to starting the 707. At first I couldn't always get it started. Now I start them first time, every time.

Here is what I do:

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power ON. External Air ON.

FE PANEL
Battery.....ON
External Power.....ON or Ground Service (I usually just place the switch to the ON position)
DC Meters Selector.....TR ESS
Essential Power Source Selector.....EXT PWR
AC Paralleling Selector.....EXTERNAL POWER
All 4 Engine Bleed Air switches.....ON
Wing Valves.....OPEN

CONTROL STAND
Engine Start Levers....START/IDLE (CTRL+SHIFT+F4)

OVERHEAD PANEL
GRD START....LOW PRESS
Engine Start Control #3...GRD      After engine #3 starts repeat for engines #4, #1 & #2

FE PANEL
External Power.....OFF
DC Meters Selector.....TR3
Essential Power Source Selector.....GEN 3
AC Paralleling Selector.....GEN 3
Galley Power.....ON

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power OFF. External Air OFF.

That should get your engines started for now. I quite often wait for N2 to reach 15-20 before switching the Engine Start Levers to START/IDLE .

Hope this helps.

Mark




A little corrections at yopur cecklist:

after start, I think is better first switc ESSENTIAL POWER to GEN3, and then turn off the GPU...
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #5 - Oct 3rd, 2010 at 4:23pm
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Yes! Most definitely. Sorry about that. I copy and pasted those from the first instance of them and forgot to drop it down the list. Shocked

Thank you for pointing that out.

Mark
  

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Alberto
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #6 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 12:33pm
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Sorry Mark,

Is there a setting to startup the 07 in cold & dark?

thx
  

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Markoz
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #7 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 1:10pm
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Hi Alberto.

I have to say yes, and also add that it is the same method. That's the way I start the 707 from cold-n-dark. Are you still having trouble starting it?

Mark
  

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Alberto
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #8 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 2:00pm
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Markoz wrote on Oct 4th, 2010 at 1:10pm:
Hi Alberto.

I have to say yes, and also add that it is the same method. That's the way I start the 707 from cold-n-dark. Are you still having trouble starting it?

Mark


yes, without problems! how can i set it to load cold and dark?

but I have problem with INS sistem... he stops align at 65  Undecided
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #9 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 2:52pm
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Alberto. You need to keep at it. When I first got the 707, I had a lot of trouble starting it. There were many times when using CTRL+E wouldn't even start them. Then suddenly. It all just worked, I get it started first time every time. You just need to get "into the grove with it" (I can't think of any other way to put it). Once you do that, it's great.

For encouragement, take a look at this Topic that I started when the 707 first came out. I was really frustrated because it just wouldn't start, no matter what I tried. Eventually it just "happened" and it was all worthwhile. Keep trying and suddenly you will just know how to start her up.

I had this problem with the Captain Sim C-130X too. Now I get it started first time, every time too. I persevered and got there in the end.

Mark
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #10 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 2:56pm
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Alberto, don't worry, the INS is a tricky little box and starts to develop its enjoyment after going through real pain  Grin
See it like in those military movies, they first break you and then build you up.

There are some important documents coming with the Civa (look into the Civa\Docs folder), one of them is


So "stops align at 65" is a somehow misleading expression as you might see then. Please look up that (whole, not only the picture above) document and watch the digits described closely.

The Civa unit speaks to you with these error codes and we have to make sure that you are listening and understanding what it says.

Also press and hold the test button (all lights come up then) every time before starting alignment to cancel all error code in the units.
The remaining error codes are the ones to care about. Normally, there shouldn't be any before starting the alignment.

If it still stops the process, I assume that you have entered the initial coordinates somehow wrongly or just went from "standby" to "align" without checking/reentering them.

Please report back on this after reading.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #11 - Oct 4th, 2010 at 3:13pm
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Quote:
yes, without problems! how can i set it to load cold and dark?

Two ways. Load the CS default 707-300 Cold-N-Dark (KSEA) My Documents\Flight Simulator X files\ (Documents\Flight Sim...etc... for Vista/Win7).

My default Flight Sim Free Flight is the C172 in a cold and dark situation everything off except for the Avionics Master Switch being left ON. This way, I can start anywhere with a cold and dark aircraft.

Mark
  

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Help with engine starts *noob*
Reply #12 - Nov 21st, 2010 at 11:18pm
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Feel like a complete noob having to ask this, but could someone detail the engine start procedure (ground as well as in flight), as I'm having trouble getting it right  Embarrassed

When I reach 15% N1 on a low pressure start and raise the start lever to start, I get no fuel/oil pressure. What am I doing wrong? Sorry for noobing around
  
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Re: Help with engine starts *noob*
Reply #13 - Nov 22nd, 2010 at 1:24am
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Hi Devrij.

See this topic here: http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1286115031/1#1

It is not necessarily a "by the book" (not according to the checklist)  engine start, but it will get you going to start with. The Support KB#6204 is also a good guide to start the engines.

Mark
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #14 - Nov 22nd, 2010 at 10:11am
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Thanks! This was exactly what I was looking for.

I was also curious about in flight start (eg after I forgot to set my fuel valves on a long flight I was left with a dead engine for the rest of the flight). I saw the procedures for high pressure starts and windmilling in flight but didn't have any luck. Your guide is the straight-forward description a FS noobie like me needs  Embarrassed
Thanks
Dev
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #15 - Nov 23rd, 2010 at 8:48pm
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #14 - Yesterday at 05:11:21   Thanks! This was exactly what I was looking for.

I was also curious about in flight start (eg after I forgot to set my fuel valves on a long flight I was left with a dead engine for the rest of the flight). I saw the procedures for high pressure starts and windmilling in flight but didn't have any luck. Your guide is the straight-forward description a FS noobie like me needs  
Thanks
Dev


Devrij,

Glad you got the low pressure start to work for you. The CS simulator does not give you much time to move the start lever during the engine start procedure. High pressure start is only to start the number 3 engine on the ground from the high pressure bottle. The in-flight (windmilling) start procedure is used for starting an engine without start air by using the ram air that passes through the engine in flight.

Somewhere there is an in-flight start check list. Too bad I did not keep all my old manuals. There should be a flight start envelope to check speed and altitude for the start.

Here is what I remember...

1. Check flight start envelope................................................. CHECK
2. Start lever off..................................................................... OFF
3. Fuel boost pump on............................................................ ON
4. Ignition to flight start......................................................... FLIGHT START
5. Raise start lever to start position...................................... START LEVER - START
6. When engine at idle, start lever to run.............................. RUN
7. Ignition to off...................................................................... OFF
8. Check fuel balance.............................................................. CHECK

Note: we never used the start position during normal start. The start lever was moved directly to run. The start position was used if the air temperature was very cold - sort of like a primer.

Lou
  

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Martin S
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #16 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:05am
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Hi. Thanks for the information - the crux is the CTRL+SHIFT+F4 combination - I use the 'Fuel Flow' gauge ('fuelflow.zip' on AVSIM) which adds this function to the cockpit..

But I have a question: In the cargo version of the 707, with APU, how do I get electrics working so that I can get Nav lights etc., without connecting to external power? Surely if the APU is running (which it is - it starts up fine and I close the two Generator switches to activate APU Gen), I shouldn't need to switch Essential Power to 'EXT PWR' to get lights? What if no external power were available and I was relying on the APU for electrics?

Also confusing (to me at least) is why, with APU running, the AC Amps in the APU window shows zero until I flip the SO External Power switch from 'Ground Service' to 'On' (what is the difference between those two settings?) - but that brings up the blue 'fail' light to the left of the switch at the same time.

I also don't know what this means in the 'start up' step-by-step earlier in this thread:

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power ON. External Air ON.


What is the 'animation panel'? I get the toggle icons with Shift+2. External Power and air are switched on in the Upper SO, no?

Maybe it would possible to give another step-by-step of the start up you use with the cargo/APU version?

Many thanks,

Martin
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #17 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:28pm
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Welcome, Martin.  Smiley

I have some questions regarding your post.
First, did I miss something on the Cargo version since you are talking about an APU there? Since this thing isn't mentioned in the manuals and no switches of that kind are present on the plane, I think that you are mixing up things there. You are speaking of AC Amps in the APU window for example. Where is that window?
No offence intended.

You mention the CTRL+SHIFT+F4 combination to be a problem on the plane. I can't follow you there since it is working fine, moving the cutoff levers. So can you describe the problem in some more detail?  Smiley

Use the ON setting of the Ground Power switch to get a full power distribution, allowing further start and initialization of the systems. Lou explained those two settings before and recommended the upward movement (right click) of the switch.
See this setup for "full power on the plane", electrically spoken.




What is the 'animation panel'?
That actually is the panel you spoke of. Shift-2 and lots of animations to trigger when clicked. Enjoy them.  Smiley

  
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Martin S
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #18 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:03pm
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Hi...The cargo version of the CS 707 has an APU (but not the passenger version) - this is the FS9 version, not FSX (which I don't have). The icon switcher panel (Shift+2) has an APU icon, which opens that window. My manuals explain the APU in some detail - I can only assume we are at crossed purposes here! Smiley

Similarly, perhaps re. Ctrl+Shift+F4. This sets the fuel flow so that engines will start - for instance in the default Learjet. I only meant that having added the AVSIM gauge to the 707 panels, I can use that instead of the keyboard to activate Ctrl+Shift+F4. I didn't mean to imply there was any kind of problem - if I don't activate the Fuel Flow gauge (or hit Ctrl+Shift+F4) the engines start to spool then fail. Otherwise, all is fine (but you knew that already!). The documentation with the gauge explains more, but it's really as simple as that.

The only problem remaining is that I can't get current to the systems working properly - with APU Generators on - without switching the dials on the upper SO panel to 'external'. That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm just about to have another look at this,

Thanks,

Martin
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #19 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:31pm
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Hi Martin.

If you are having a problem with the Legendary 707 for FS9, then you should ask your question in the Legendary 707 - General forum. This is for the 707 Captain for FSX forum. And the '707 Captain' doesn't have an APU. Unfortunately. Wink

Mark
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #20 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 2:28pm
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OK! My fault then (if this forum had had FSX in the title I would have noticed), but the 'problem' is only a cosmetic one, so I may as well leave it. I start up, fly and land the a/c with no issues..

Thanks...

M.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #21 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 2:38pm
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Hi Martin.

There is no harm in you saying something, or asking a question in here. Sorry if I gave that impression because I never meant to.

The only problem remaining is that I can't get current to the systems working properly - with APU Generators on - without switching the dials on the upper SO panel to 'external'. That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm just about to have another look at this,
But if it is in regards to the Legendary 707, as that is, we might not be able to help.

Mark
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #22 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 3:06pm
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Thanks, Martin, for pointing out that you are talking about the FS9 version while I was wondering about FSX.
No harm done.  Smiley
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #23 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 6:24pm
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No, all is fine; thanks for the kind replies. No problem! Except the tiny one I mentioned with the FS9 707 - but as I say, given that I am moving abroad in a few weeks and that the 707 starts up fine (as long as I switch to External Power (even if APU is running), I shan't worry about that for now. Other things to think about .. (I am taking FS9 with me on my Dell XPS laptop as an interim before I can ship my large FS9/FSX PC out there).

M. Smiley
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #24 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 4:24pm
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Nothing to do with this aircraft but I thought I might add that not all apu's provide electric power generation, some aircraft have smaller ones installed solely to provide bleed air for engine starts and don't have sufficient power to run any electric systems.
  

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Engine start
Reply #25 - Mar 10th, 2011 at 1:22am
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Hi, in real world is possible star two engines at the same time?. Tks
  
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Re: Engine start
Reply #26 - Mar 10th, 2011 at 4:13am
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In the 707, I wouldn't know, but in say the 757 yes you can. As long as APu is running to supply extra charge to batteries. See, engies are started 1 at a time because back in the reciprocating days, you would check to make sure all things are working properly. Nowadays, there are less problems as in the reciprocating engines, but each engine must be monitered and starting both simultaniously would mean that the pilot & copilot can't check the engines carefully and have each other to correct for the other's error.
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #27 - Mar 11th, 2011 at 1:15am
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Cheesy 757? no tks, B707 any idea?
  
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Re: Engine start
Reply #28 - Mar 11th, 2011 at 2:01am
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Well, I don't know, you probably can, and I hope you appreciated my bit of expertise.
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #29 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 8:09am
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Yes you can start 2 engines on the 707 at the same time...
However, this is not very good thing to do, and pilots do not operate the aircraft in this way either...
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #30 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 10:34pm
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Start ONE engine at a time!
Monitor the engine start so as not to exceed start temps.

Most Boeing planes I flew could NOT start more than one engine at a time - APU or ground air could not handle the load.
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #31 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 5:30am
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Running engines are highly overrated.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Engine start
Reply #32 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 8:49am
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LOU wrote on Mar 13th, 2011 at 10:34pm:
Start ONE engine at a time!
Monitor the engine start so as not to exceed start temps.

Most Boeing planes I flew could NOT start more than one engine at a time - APU or ground air could not handle the load.


Yes I totally agree with Lou... On regular aircrafts and airports this would be not possible to achieve.

However, if you are in a military base, they can use special military ground air generators to start 2-3 engines at the same time. This is very rare, but it has been done and tested of course..
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #33 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 5:42pm
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You may have seen, in the 50's US President Eisenhower's plane the Columbine III a C121 Constellation start all four engines at once.
It sure looked cool, but I would not like to be the Flight Engineer on that start!  Cheesy

Lou
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #34 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 1:35am
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Ok, tks a lot, all
  
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Re: Engine start
Reply #35 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 6:30am
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LOU wrote on Mar 14th, 2011 at 5:42pm:
You may have seen, in the 50's US President Eisenhower's plane the Columbine III a C121 Constellation start all four engines at once.
It sure looked cool, but I would not like to be the Flight Engineer on that start!  Cheesy

Lou


HAHAHAHAHA Very ture!! very true my friend hahahahaha....
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #36 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 9:19am
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I don´t know for the 707, but they DO start two engines at a time in the 747 and A340. No Problem as the engine start is fully automatic and the APU is strong enough to power both.

  
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Re: Engine start
Reply #37 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 3:29pm
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Viethson,

I don't know where you got that info, but the airlines do NOT start more than one engine at a time.
The risk of a hot start would be high because the air flow to the air driven starter would be quite low.
It's hard enough to keep an eye on one engine during start.  Tongue
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #38 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 5:40pm
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Viethson wrote on Mar 17th, 2011 at 9:19am:
I don´t know for the 707, but they DO start two engines at a time in the 747 and A340. No Problem as the engine start is fully automatic and the APU is strong enough to power both.



Who have told you this?
No offence really but its disinformation...
Commercial airliners would never do something like that...
Like Lou said, its to risky indeed..
  

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Re: Engine start
Reply #39 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:46pm
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I´m sorry, maybe my post was a little misleading. What I was trying to say was that with some 4 engine aircraft it is possible to start two engines at a time. If it is actually done depends on limitations and procedures of the operator. I have talked to many B747 and A340 pilots and they have told me that it is possible and that they have done it, well maybe not every day as a normal procedure.
Of course it also depends on the condition of the APU and maybe on a very hot day it might not be possible...
Engine start is fully automatic thanks to FADEC, so abnormal start handling is not such a matter as it used to be some years ago. FADEC would not allow fuel flow in case of insufficient air pressure and N2 rotation, so no hot start.
I haven´t  seen it with my own eyes, I can only tell what they have told me. All I can say firsthand is that in the A320 it is not possible  Wink

Also see this post
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/153196

Cheers
  
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Can't Start Engines
Reply #40 - Jul 6th, 2011 at 11:28pm
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Hi all, I'm not really sure what's going on, but I am unable to start engines on the 707.  I even followed the instructions in another post from this forum, (albert I think?).  Nothing will work, CTRL+E only starts engines 3 and 4? If I press it again, it will start 2, but nothing will start 1.  Please help.

Thanks!
- Jeff
  
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Re: Can't Start Engines
Reply #41 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:25am
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Try my engine start guide here: http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1286115031/1#1. That should get you going. Smiley

Mark
  

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Re: Can't Start Engines
Reply #42 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 2:57pm
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Thanks for the link, I've tried your guide the other day and still no joy on the engine start, I've turned both the air and external power on.  Do I have to be parked at the gate?  That's the only thing I could think of.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #43 - Jul 23rd, 2011 at 6:53pm
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how can I set my fsx to have the cs707 cold and dark by default?
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #44 - Jul 23rd, 2011 at 7:32pm
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giorgio nicola wrote on Jul 23rd, 2011 at 6:53pm:
how can I set my fsx to have the cs707 cold and dark by default?

Start FSX, in Free Flight select Load, find 707-300 Cold-n-Dark (KSEA). Once you have found it, checkmark (place a tick in) the box beside Make this the default flight. Every time you go to start a new flight, it will be the Cold-n-Dark 707.
In all honesty, I don't recommend doing that because if you have other developers advanced add-on aircraft, it could cause them to crash by using the 707 as the default flight.

When I switch between one developers add-on aircraft to another developers product, I switch to one of the simple default FS aircraft, like the trick, to avoid FSX crashing. It works most of the time, but I can still get a fatal error every now and then.

Mark
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #45 - Aug 1st, 2011 at 10:04pm
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Markoz wrote on Oct 3rd, 2010 at 2:35pm:
Firstly. I take it that you are loading the 707 with the engines already started then?

Secondly. There is a "procedure" to starting the 707. At first I couldn't always get it started. Now I start them first time, every time.

Here is what I do:

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power ON. External Air ON.

FE PANEL
Battery.....ON
External Power.....ON or Ground Service (I usually just place the switch to the ON position)
DC Meters Selector.....TR ESS
Essential Power Source Selector.....EXT PWR
AC Paralleling Selector.....EXTERNAL POWER
All 4 Engine Bleed Air switches.....ON
Wing Valves.....OPEN
Left & Right Air-Conditioning Unit Pack Switches.....ON

CONTROL STAND
Engine Start Levers....START/IDLE (CTRL+SHIFT+F4)

OVERHEAD PANEL
GRD START....LOW PRESS
Engine Start Control #3...GRD      After engine #3 starts repeat for engines #4, #1 & #2

FE PANEL
DC Meters Selector.....TR3
Essential Power Source Selector.....GEN 3
AC Paralleling Selector.....GEN 3
External Power.....OFF
Galley Power.....ON

Shift + 2 (Animation Panel)
External Power OFF. External Air OFF.

That should get your engines started for now. I quite often wait for N2 to reach 15-20 before switching the Engine Start Levers to START/IDLE .

Hope this helps.

Mark

EDIT Oct 3rd, 2010 at 4:29pm: Moved External Power.....OFF to the correct order of the procedure as pointed out by Alberto! Thanks.
EDIT2 Oct 6th, 2010 at 7:45am: Added the Left & Right Air-Conditioning Unit Pack Switches.....ON into the start-up procedure. I somehow thought that they and the Wing Valves were the same switches. Sorry. Sad



I can't get the engines to start, have done all you wrote here but no start.

I can hear the engine spool up but it won't ignite. It starts with ctrl+e but thats not my game to start them that way.

What have i left out? Should i see the dials move on spoolup?  Undecided
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #46 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:00am
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Did figure it out. Had to hold the switches to grd until ignition  Cheesy
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #47 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:48am
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We would have to investigate which (vital) step you are currently missing, Razor.
Be aware that e. g. Mark's checklist is an altered procedure when compared to the checklist in the manual (which is the rw counterpart), but both ways should lead to running engines of course.

The main procedure is to establish external power and air, distribute it through the plane and later get self-sustaining with two engines running, starting the other two then with the power and air 'coming out' of those.
Maybe I can describe the stuff with some pictures, using the checklists from the manual (which is manual3).

Starting with loading your plane, setting up the fuel load and getting it correctly parked. So you may open the doors, apply the chocks and, very important, enable the external power and air.

As we don't have any APU available, you will need this to get power and air for your systems and the AC into your plane.

You switch your battery to on and run through the checks of the levers and switches in the cockpit, which e. g. includes setting the start levers to cutoff position and checking the flaps lever and the one for the gear.



To achieve the external power and air being distributed throughout the plane, set up these things. Note the blue 'PWR on bus' light and the switch for the external power being in the upper ON position (which needs a right click).


The air pressure readings should both be active, low and high pressure.

Make sure to have the wing valves opened or the air won't reach the engines. For starting, leave the bleed air valves off until 3&4 are running, then open them to get pressure into the system for the start of 1&2.

While on the ground and preparing your flight, the galley power can remain on and also one AC unit can run. The ones on the 707 are electrical driven, so they draw quite some power from your ground power unit.
That's one reason to turn both things off just before engine start. Equipment cooling NORM and the planned cabin altitude and temperatures can be set now.
Hydraulic pressure needed? Use this setting to e. g. get some brake pressure.


For the flight and in regard to your fuel load, set up the pumps there.

The setup on the Overhead mainly includes the lights and the engine start control switches. Also choose the LOW PRESS setting for starting.

You see the GRD position on the #3 engine switch being marked there. Don't turn the switch yet, but this is the position to choose for starting her later.

Now or just after getting power to the plane, you set up all the navigational things, align the INS, watch the charts, set the speedbugs and so on.

Getting closer to engine start, close the doors of the plane and make sure to have your INS aligned and set to NAV, the INS/Doppler to INS.



As said, before attempting to start, turn off the galley power and also any AC unit, set the beacon to on and also the passenger signs.
Then rotate the engine #3 start control switch to GRD and watch the N2 gauge to reach approx 15%.

Then switch the engine start lever from the cutoff to the idle position and wait for #3 to ignite it's fuel.

This picture was taken just after the ignition, so the N2 value is much higher than 15% there. Don't get distracted by this, please.

Ok, #3 should be running and you are still on external air supply. So you can start #4 now, in the same way. Around 15% N2 means 'fuel on'.

Now, we want to get rid of the external stuff, so we get the #3 and #4 generators online and on the buses and also make sure that those two running engines now supply our air pressure system, otherwise #1 and #2 won't start after the external air is gone.
So make sure to set the switches like this.


When done and checked, disconnect the external power and air.


You should still have some low pressure readings then (as 3 and 4 now produce pressure) and also enough power, your are self-sustaining now, so they can push you back and stuff.
Starting 2 and 1 then happens like 3 and 4 before. GRD START switch to OFF after this.

After all engines are running, set the galley power, the air compressors on, the engine bleeds off and the AC units both to on. Pressure and power are sufficient enough now.

Things like the radar, transponder, stab trim setting and all the lights are up to you. If you've used the hydraulic interconnect before, you can disable it now.

Before takeoff, turn off the #4 air compressor, turn on the ignition for all engines and also don't forget about the window and pitot heating to run. Clock:go!



At a safe height, the ignition is weather dependant, but can go to off.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #48 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:49am
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Razor68 wrote on Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:00am:
Did figure it out. Had to hold the switches to grd until ignition  Cheesy

So see my tutorial as a nice read.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #49 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 2:06am
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Razor68 wrote on Aug 2nd, 2011 at 1:00am:
Did figure it out. Had to hold the switches to grd until ignition  Cheesy

That's really strange Razor68. I turn the knobs to GRD and release them. They stay there until the engine starts and then they switch to OFF automatically once the engine is started. Undecided
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #50 - Aug 2nd, 2011 at 3:33pm
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Nice engine start checklist CoolP!

Lou
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #51 - Aug 3rd, 2011 at 12:04am
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Thanks. Did you notice the TWA paint at beautiful Geneva, Lou? It fit well there.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #52 - Aug 3rd, 2011 at 3:29am
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Yes I did, I wonder if I was in that plane.... Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #53 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 4:24am
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Ok I have litterally done every single thing exactly how it has been done in the tutorials and I still cannot get more than engine 3 and 2 started.  And 2 took about 10 tries.  What gives?  FSX version of the 707, windows 7 64bit.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #54 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 7:45am
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Just for testing purposes, does the default Ctrl-E command work for you? Be patient (some steps take time), but it should start all engines.

Do you run any hardware for the mixture axes by any chance? If so, please disconnect them for one flight and make sure that all the VC start levers are in the up position. On this pic, they are down. Just using the pic to show where the levers are located. You can also use the default FSX key command for 'full rich'.

Move those levers all the way up. All four of them and then try to start the engines. Check again if they're up since e.g. a spiking mixture axis is able to move them down and this will cut off the engine almost instantaneously in FSX or just avoid starting it.
  
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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #55 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 4:04pm
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CoolP is correct. Also, be aware the position labeled START is an enrichment position for cold weather starts.
In all my flying we never used this position and went directly to IDLE
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #56 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 4:29pm
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LOU wrote on Mar 27th, 2013 at 4:04pm:
CoolP is correct. Also, be aware the position labeled START is an enrichment position for cold weather starts.
In all my flying we never used this position and went directly to IDLE

I have nearly always moved mine to IDLE. In the beginning I put them on START, started the engines, then put them on IDLE.

Nice to hear that a RW 707 pilot never put them in the START position back in the day. Smiley
  

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Re: Engine Start Problems
Reply #57 - Mar 27th, 2013 at 8:50pm
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Make sure you move the engine start lever to IDLE as soon as the N2 gauge indicates more than 15%, don't waste time.
As soon as the N2 indication has stabilized at about 20%, it is too late and the engine will not start.

LOU:
By the way, I have been questioning myself many times, why normal procedures require to move the start levers to IDLE instead of START.
Thank you for explaining.
  

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