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 25 To New Members Lou and Delta Dog (Read 64219 times)
btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #30 - Mar 12th, 2010 at 3:33am
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Okay---not fun anymore!  Grin

Lou, don't know how new you are to all this, but with your knowledge and experience you need the (CS won't allow competitor names) stuff. Complete FMS, SIDS, STARS and the whole  nine yards! you can be back at work in no time!!

Bruce
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #31 - Mar 12th, 2010 at 6:41pm
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Bruce,

I have some brand X stuff as well with the FMC.
Sometimes you just want to take it around the patch and shoot a few landings.
That's where Crtl-E and go is just right.

I have a J-5 Cub S.N. 710 built 4th of March 1941 with no electrical system,
no radio, no nothing but your butt to help you go for a ride.



Now that is basic flying!  Cool

  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #32 - Mar 12th, 2010 at 9:31pm
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Lou -

No radio?? Is that legal? No electrical??? Doesn't sound right. Neat looking airplane with the wheel boots (or whatever they're called). Are they really good for 10 more kts?

I've fooled around with the Cub and the 172 in FS9 &  FSX a few times and it just doesn't seem like you get anywhere.

When I lived in KY I had a buddy that was a retired Col. B-52 driver and I would go up with him in a rented Warrior about once a month.

Seems like all the for real commercial pilots like those little bitty airplanes. They all say that is REAL flying. And I suppose it is.

I have been fascinated by airports and commercial airliners since the mid 50s when I joined the USMCR and flew DC3s to San Diego from Milwaukee for summer camp at Camp Pendleton. That was something!

Then in 1962 I went to work for PAA (reservation agent) right out of college and rode on 707s and 727s a half dozen trips a year. One day I heard on my car radio that UAL was hiring FEs and all you needed for an interview was a private license and 2 years of college. Then I heard a commercial for Atlas Aviation at Stapleton. $5 got you a30 minute demo ride in a Cessna. I bombed over there right then and took the ride. I remember taxiing to the active with a 727 behind us and a DC8 in front. The noise and the smell of jet fuel burning and the rapid fire atc ground, that I could not understand, intimidated me! The instructor had me land the plane while he worked the throttle and told me what to do and it was smooth as glass. I went back to my desk at Pan Am and that was that!! Oh, I didn't mention--- I was a real white knuckle flier until about 20 years ago (but I never passed up a trip)!

Sorry for the rambling!

Bruce
  
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JETPILOT
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #33 - Mar 12th, 2010 at 11:07pm
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Lou.... You have not found any issues with the main trim? Yours doesn't operate too fast? I can't get the plane trimmed out with the trim al lscrewed up.
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #34 - Mar 13th, 2010 at 2:24am
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Jetpilot,

Yes the trim is a bit fast if you use the "Main Trim" - which would in the real plane be the left set of buttons on the captains yoke, or the right set in the F/O's side - button on your joy stick.

I use very short hits on the button and seem to do OK.

There is a cruise trim [half speed] switch on the throttle pedestal to the lower right. You can use the mouse left and right buttons to get a slower rate of trim. To me that's just too much trouble so I just give short hits on the joystick trim buttons. You can assign most extra buttons on the joystick to do that function.

Hope that helps.

Lou
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #35 - Mar 13th, 2010 at 4:29am
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I fly the 727 as well and I find the main elecric trim issue inexcusable. I can never get the trim set correctly when using the main trim on approach. There should be 2 different speeds on the main trim as well. When the triming nose down and the trim is between 0 and 1.5 units the trim is automatically transfered to the autopilot cruise trim motor. A nose up trim input switches bac kto the main trim motor. There is only one speed modelled.
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #36 - Mar 13th, 2010 at 2:44pm
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Why not just change the rate for the joystick/yoke trim settings in options - settings - controls - buttons/keys? As I have shown in the pic :-



With the setting that 727 points to. It's one click and setting adjusts up or down a bit. Even if you hold the button down it will still only move that one click. That one click is a pretty big one in the 727 though. Sad

Mark
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #37 - Mar 14th, 2010 at 12:46am
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TRIM

Here is a quick tour of the center pedestal in the 727


In the photo above, I point out some of the Stabilizer Trim controls in the 727.
There are 4 ways to move the stabilizer trim in the 727.
1. Main electric trim on the pilots control wheel, using the thumb switch in real life, or the joystick trim switches.
2. Cruise trim switch on the lower right of the pedestal. (Slow rate)
3. Manual. You can use a flip-out handle on the big black wheel and crank in trim. CAREFUL here in real life as this wheel could break your arm if your not careful and someone hit the trim button. So in the real world you would have to use the cutout switches on the lower right of the pedestal. In CS-727 they don't seem to shutoff the trim, but they should. You can move the trim wheel with your mouse.
4. The Autopilot can trim the stab as well.

I agree the main trim is wild!

Lou
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #38 - Mar 14th, 2010 at 8:25am
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Lou...

Do you remember the song for engine failures.... Essential Power, Galley Power, Cargo Heat & Packs, Power the bus, Check the load and Don't exceed the max!.   Smiley

Who did you fly for?
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #39 - Mar 14th, 2010 at 7:42pm
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JP,

Yeah, the only memory item we had was CHECK ESSENTIAL!
I flew for TWA from May 1968 to January 2001 when AA bought TWA.
AA sent us to DAL to get under their OS and I flew as AA until November 2005 (age 60)
I flew the 727, 707, 747, 767 and 757. The 757 was a wonderful plane.
As you know since you flew the 727, the 757 would climb better on one engine than the 727 did with all three running.
At TWA we called the 727 "The Pig!" Every one of the 727 had a pig name. I remember "Swine Flew", "Trough Aloft" and there were so many more. In the CS-727 painted in TWA colors, the plane name is City of Frankfort. I flew 7844 many times based in Berlin. TWA has a small domicile there in the 80's with 727-100's. We were based in Berlin a month at a time and only flew the corridor. It was a great time! Each 727 had a German city name, and each night we were back in Berlin.

Lou
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #40 - Mar 14th, 2010 at 8:20pm
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OK..... I have a question about TWA planes that has bothered me for a long long time. We had an ex TWA-100 in our fleet. Why in Gods name did TWA order their aircraft with all the overhead and engineer panel switchs the revers of normal? Every time I got into that airplane it took me about 5 days to get used to it. When cleared for TO I would always try to throw the landing light switches foward and they wouldn't move and then I realized I was in the TWA plane. Same above 10,000 I would go to turn them off and then realize I have to move them the other way. I hated TWA for a long time!  Smiley

Yeah the 727 was not a stellar climber. Even worse we had a -200's with -7 engines. We called it the 150. It was quite horrible.
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #41 - Mar 14th, 2010 at 11:01pm
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Lou -

Way back in my Pan Am days we heard some bizarre stories about a rogue TWA Captain with the nickname Hoot Gibson. Did you know him??

Bruce
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #42 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 2:56am
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JP,

TWA ordered their Boeing's that way because of one old fart who decided he knew more than the folks that built the plane in the first place.

The overhead panel was considered a vertical panel, thus to turn on something, you flipped the switch up. That's the long and short of it. This carried through to the F/E panel which as you may remember had the A/C panel also upside down. Same stupid idea. It drove me nuts as a F/E because we had leased planes from National and Northeast that were normal Boeing planes.

Now it gets fun...

When the L-1011 came along, it had as standard equipment, a third horizon located just to the right of the Captains instrument panel. It was included in this new plane because of the United 727 that crashed with loss of horizons because of A/C power loss. The third, or stand-by horizon was battery powered. Well this same old fool said TWA did not need such an instrument and told Lockheed to take it out. They did at a cost of some large dollars.

When the L-1011 came on-line, the FAA said that ALL planes will have a stand-by horizon. TWA told Lockheed to put back the 3rd horizon. Lockheed said OK, but that will cost X amount of dollars.  Cheesy

So now you have the rest of the story...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce,

As for Hoot, he got a bad rap because the FAA (and Boeing) tried to blame him for the event that made plane # 7831 go supersonic over DTW during an event that is very complex, but I think was caused by a bad A-system rudder actuator.

As an instructor in the 727 both as F/E check airman and Captain check airman, we were aware of many problems with un-commanded rudder movements on Boeing planes. This was the Toyota of the air at that time. You may remember a United 737 crash at COS that they tried to blame on the crew. All the airlines had events of some sort with the rudder on various Boeing planes. It was not until the USAir crash near PIT that it came to a head. All the actuators were changed and the problem went away.

For Hoot that night over DTW here is what I think the chain of events were...

They were at FL390, maybe a bit heavy, but the -100 was better than the -200 at being high and heavy. The plane was on autopilot and the crew noticed the yoke was commanding a turn. Remember that this was a early 60's plane with a dumb autopilot. The autopilot had only 2 channels - roll and pitch. The 727 was the most swept wing plane in the airlines and was prone to dutch roll. High and fast were not good when you had dutch roll. The 727 had 2 yaw dampers and needed them big time. If you lost one damper you descended RIGHT NOW into thicker air and slowed down, because loss of the second damper made for an interesting ride, the industry called a hull loss!

So here is old Hoot at FL-390 or 410 in a 727 and guess what... they get an un-commanded rudder input. From the transcript it was a wild ride indeed. The A rudder goes hard to one side. The autopilot sees the yaw and counters with aileron input. After a certain amount of aileron, the 727 adds spoiler to the up aileron to counter adverse yaw. The device that controlled the mix of aileron and spoiler was called the "aileron mixer spoiler ratio changer." In any event at high altitude the last thing these folks needed was spoilers to add drag. The autopilot had the yoke full over to try and maintain heading. The buffet from the spoilers was intense. Imagine, looking at the yoke full to one side, the shaking and buffet, and trying to understand what was going on!

The pilot's first move was to disconnect the autopilot. When you disconnect the autopilot, the wheel which was holding full aileron to counter yaw, went to neutral - RIGHT NOW! Remember the A, or lower rudder ( the 727 has a split rudder - A, bottom and B, upper) was hard to one side. With the aileron returned to neutral the rudder caused the plane to yaw, which resulted in a roll and spiral as the nose fell. Airspeed built up very fast and as JP will remember the 727 was very noisy in the cockpit above 300 kts IAS.

Now the plane was in a steep spiral dive building speed. As the plane passed Mach .90 the noise was so loud that voice was unusable. Soon, old #7831 went through Mach 1.0 in a tight spiral heading for the ground. The F/O pointed to the gear handle to try to slow the beast down. Hoot pointed his hand down! As the gear extended, above Mach 1, the gear door departed the aircraft.

The main gear, as it extends normally has a rearward movement. The gear came out into the Mach 1+ air and moved aft with such force that it ripped the drag brace from the spar. The A system hydraulic line was broken and A system pressure was lost. The loss of A system ended the rudder hard over and the turn stopped. The plane was still in a steep dive at Mach 1+ and the ground was coming up fast. As the crew pulled the nose up to end the dive one of the right wing leading edge slats, whose up-lock had failed, extended into the fast air and departed the plane. This was moot since A system was lost anyway and a landing without leading edge flaps and slats was the least of their worries.

The plane landed in DTW and as you can guess there was a lot of laundry to do during post flight! The FAA and Boeing (deep pockets) tried to say the event was caused by the pilots extending trailing edge flaps to make lift at high altitude. They claimed the slat was lost because of this crew action. Nobody that flew the 727 believed that. After many years of careful exam of the FDR and the trail of evidence of parts falling off the plane, it was shown that the slat was shed at the end of the event, not the beginning.

Years later, old #7831 was based in Berlin, where I logged many hours in this -100. The plane had all sorts of plates to re-enforce the left wing and it flew a bit bent, but it flew on.

Maybe a bit more history than you needed about Hoot, but there you have it.

Lou
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #43 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 4:00am
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We had one of the TWA -100's and it was a pain in the @ss as it was differen't from every other one we had. It was also the only one with the early pressurization panel.

All in all the 727 was a really nice plane. Especially comming from the DC-8 which was a really horrible plane to fly.

The 727's we had were freighter conversions and actually had most of the insulation removed to save weight so it was louder than normal and very cold. The 72 cockpit is not a quiet place.
  
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #44 - Mar 15th, 2010 at 8:48pm
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Lou -

That was a great story about Capt. Gibson!!! I remember that it had to do with lowering the gear to slow down, but did not know the real story. Enjoyed every word!! Weren't you ever worried flying that same ac so many times afterward?

You have a great knack for explaining things in detail while at the same time making them interesting. You are a terrific resource for this forum!!

Bruce
  
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