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Markoz
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #30 - Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am
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FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #31 - Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:44am
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virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:38am:
I "never" stated that anti-aliasing is a bad thing, but rather in the case of FSX, which is a directX 9 product, and as such can not take advantage of the features in superior cards that support directX 11

I think we need to remind ourselves about the fact that antialiasing itself isn't bound to any API (DirectX 9 vs 10 and 11). So you can and will have the ability to filter regardless of the API in use. To add, my example links showed two other DirectX9 titles, Skyrim and Half-Life2. http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1375581365/9#9

Now there are differences when it comes to forcing the graphics driver to make use of antialiasing. With DX9 based titels, you can force the use on the driver level while the standard for DX10 and above aims to keep the options application based. So the games themselves are supposed to offer a menu. Side note. Later graphic drivers from Nvidia and AMD also allowed to enforce AA on DX10+ titles, at least for some.

In the case of FSX (and P3D by the way), we are somehow lucky to look at mainly DX9 based engines (with the FSX 'DX10 preview' being the exception) as we can make use of tools like Nvidia Inspector to set up the filtering in a very detailed way. By this, you can alter any kind of mode, separately for the full screen level and the one of the transparent textures, the ones being used at the gauges, trees, fences and so on.

Again, the fact that the game is DX9 based does not imply any downside when it comes to AA. And no DX11 graphics chip will suffer from the fact that it now has to filter the old DX9 game. As the cards grew stronger over the years, you now actually have enough raw power to apply even the most demanding filter levels to FSX and other old games. The more one invests, the more antialiasing he will be able to use without losing too much in cloudy FSX skies.

Now that's the big differentiation one has to make when it comes to FSX and big graphic cards. They don't really raise your fps (unless you compare them to very low budget models), but they can keep your fps steady even when using a lot of AA in cloudy scenes. By this, I absolutely agree that, if one doesn't want or like AA, it's of no use to buy such cards. But, as pointed out, I highly doubt that fuzzy gauge needles and shimmering scenes are what simmers like. I repeat myself when pointing at the fact that PC based gaming happens on low-ish dpi screens. Hence the 'need' for antialiasing, as pointed out in previous posts.

So I have to ask for a bit of patience since my FSX rig is at home while I am not.  Undecided If I get there, I can show some example shots on the 707, which has very nice and sharp gauges but receives a lot of improvement when the transparency antialiasing is in use. In the meantime, the example links given before should do the trick. Note. With moving pictures, the gain is even bigger as the shimmering on the whole scene is largely reduced.
  
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Markoz
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #32 - Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:07am
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On my 24" Monitor, with a 1920 x 1080 resolution, if the anti-aliasing is OFF, the aircraft in FSX look terrible (jagged edges), but if I have anti-aliasing ON, they look great (smooth edges). So for me, anti-aliasing turned ON is a must!
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #33 - Aug 7th, 2013 at 11:14am
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Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am:
FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)


Thanks Mark and CoolP...that answers my question. I will purchase FSX Gold.
Cheesy
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #34 - Aug 7th, 2013 at 3:11pm
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Makes sense. It's the latest version, so to speak. And the cheapest package for it. Well, when you get your new system, perhaps also download the X-Plane demo or the demo for DCS World. Just to check some new sim engines and see how your new rig performs there. Won't hurt, it's just a more or less large download.  Smiley
  
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #35 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 12:31am
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CoolP wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:03am:
The gold version should include the acceleration pack. But I think they come on separate disks, so you should install FSX itself and then run the acceleration addon installer, which should take care of updating the base version to the latest one. That's from 2007 by the way. See how old the soft is?  Undecided

virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:02am:
Anti-aliasing in many cases is more of a personal preference, since different people place different value in its worth.

I very much agree although I'd like to point out that the reference links given in my previous post should show a bit of the image improvement coming in with using antialiasing. And, as said, I'm happy to provide some example shots with a very good candidate for the use of antialiasing, the VC of the CS 707. Beautiful as it is, those gauges need a proper environment. And that's just one example.

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when a person has an issue with FPS in FSX, one of the very first remedies is to reduce or even disable anti-aliasing in order to achieve better frame rates.

That's most likely where we differ a lot. I wouldn't sacrifice antialiasing and I also doubt that the low fps scenarios in FSX are caused by it. If your approach or departure at a crowded airport comes in with low fps, you are most likely seeing the CPU limit of the old sim engine. Therefore, the remedy would either be to increase the CPU speed or to lower the scene's detail. No change on the antialiasing.

Low fps due to the use of (too much) antialiasing might happen in clouds, hence the tip to go the rather small step from the GTX650 to 660. The product name numbers of those cards may be close but the performance increase is very significant. In fact, it's pretty much the largest increase in performance on the whole Nvidia lineup with just going one model further. So the next step, which would be from going from the 660Ti to the 670, is much smaller for example.

I think that, with picking the 660Ti, the OP has made the right choice to allow for even cloudy skies to receive proper and fast filtering. I myself only run a GTX570 (which gets outperformed by the 660) and can happily report some good performance in cloudy skies. Now if I would crank up the antialiasing some more or if I had a smaller card, I would see more impact. So, on that point, we may agree to some extent.

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i5 is probably just as good as an i7, but you should also consider trying to maximize your investment as well by buying something that will have a longer lifespan.

Partial agreement. But it's a case by case decision. When looking at the current prices for the i7 and 'corresponding' i5 CPU and the close to zero effect on FSX when it comes to the small technical differences, a 'longer lifespan' can't be assumed. Even on a modern sim engine, which would be X-Plane, the i5 doesn't lack of any power as the modern sim engine makes more use of a modern graphic card. So, for this future and lifespan, you are equal on the old FSX engine and better off with the larger graphics card on e.g. X-Plane or DCS World.

The examples for making use of the i7 incorporated tech were given before. They did not include any current sim engine. That's from testing all of them. So, indeed, there is a choice to be made when it comes to buying the stuff and, most of all, looking at the price steps for getting the bigger equipment.


Yes you are correct. the gold edition of FSX does come on two separate discs. Also both discs have to be activated separately as well. The acceleration disc also contains both updates as well.

Let me be clear about anti-aliasing. I still contend that anti-aliasing is a personal preference, but that is not to say that anti-aliasing has no value in certain instances. Anti-aliasing is also a relative resource hog, which is not a concern IF you have a powerful computer. So when buying a computer on a limited budget, anti-aliasing is not a priority considering all the other features in a program such as FSX, which in my opinion, give a much better bang for the buck, with an overall better FPS. It is not necessary that you provide example shots, because I have compared many examples myself, and the VC of all my aircraft look beautiful, and clear, and sharp at a high resolution and NO anti-aliasing.

It is true that there are many other features of FSX such as scenery detail, scenery density for example that eat up FPS, but these are much more important to the overall visual effect, and realism then anti-aliasing. I agree that there are many things one can do to improve performance, but anti-aliasing is the better way to go if FPS are an issue. Starting by reducing or disabling anti-aliasing, and then progressing from there if required is the better way to go. In the case of increasing CPU speed, which I previously stated, is indeed the best solution.

You mention different video cards, which when it comes to FSX has limited value. There is a brake even point when it comes to FSX. FSX only supports DirectX 9c (I know about the demo mode directx 10) is available in the sim, but it has proven to be rather buggy, and is in fact an unfinished product that Microsoft just stuck into the sim. Now just to be clear in the newer games the newer more capable video cards are a definite asset.

In the case of XPlane an i7 CPU which has a larger cache for example will probably be of more benefit, although I have not made a direct comparison. I also would agree that XPlane does benefit with a more advanced video card, because it is not as CPU intensive as FSX is. XPlane can also take advantage of multiple core processors as well, something that FSX cannot do. Besides we were not responding to questions about XPlane, but rather to questions about the best computer specifically for FSX.  In fact XPlane has new features that are superior to the standard anti-aliasing.
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #36 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:02am
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Bernoulli wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 11:14am:
Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am:
FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)


Thanks Mark and CoolP...that answers my question. I will purchase FSX Gold.
Cheesy


I have FSX, Prepar3D, and XPlane. Here are my impressions. FSX is an old simulation, and the features you get in newer video cards are lost on FSX. Remember FSX employes DirectX 9c, and as such cannot give you the effects you might want even if your computer is capable of displaying those advanced features. Like i previously stated to you in the case of FSX specifically, the CPU will give you the best performance boost over any other hardware on your computer. Having said that FSX is slicker, and more user friendly then the other two simulators. At this point in time, if you accept FSX with all its warts so to speak, you still have a pretty good simulation as long as you don't bog it down with too many scenery addons. Also any scenery addons you do decide to use, only buy them from reputable companies. In the case of FSX you have to strike a balance between performance, and how it looks.

In the case of Prepar3D, you essentially have FSX code that has been reworked to try and overcome FSX limitations. P3D handles memory better then FSX, and OOM issues are not a problem as in FSX. Also P3D will be introducing DirectX 11 to P3D, which should significantly improve overall visuals, and to a lesser extent performance should improve because of other improvements. On the down side P3d is still 32 bit code like FSX, and at present P3d is not as slick and user friendly as  FSX.

XPlane is not user friendly, is very not very slick, but it IS 64 bit code, which totally removes the memory issues, and limitations. It is the only simulation at present that has the best realistic visuals, since it already employs DirectX 11. The scenery is displayed in 3D as opposed to FSX, and Prepar3D, which is a significant improvement is realism. The flight model is more realistic. The plan is also to actually design the scenery to reflect the actual buildings for example of the country that you are in, as opposed to FSX, and Prepar3D which has the same generic buildings all over the world. On the down side the airports do not have any terminals buildings, but only the airstrips themselves. Although the airstrips are much more realistic then the other sims. these are some of the differences. I hope this helps in your choices.
  

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virge
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #37 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:10am
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CoolP wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:44am:
virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:38am:
I "never" stated that anti-aliasing is a bad thing, but rather in the case of FSX, which is a directX 9 product, and as such can not take advantage of the features in superior cards that support directX 11

I think we need to remind ourselves about the fact that antialiasing itself isn't bound to any API (DirectX 9 vs 10 and 11). So you can and will have the ability to filter regardless of the API in use. To add, my example links showed two other DirectX9 titles, Skyrim and Half-Life2. http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1375581365/9#9

Now there are differences when it comes to forcing the graphics driver to make use of antialiasing. With DX9 based titels, you can force the use on the driver level while the standard for DX10 and above aims to keep the options application based. So the games themselves are supposed to offer a menu. Side note. Later graphic drivers from Nvidia and AMD also allowed to enforce AA on DX10+ titles, at least for some.

In the case of FSX (and P3D by the way), we are somehow lucky to look at mainly DX9 based engines (with the FSX 'DX10 preview' being the exception) as we can make use of tools like Nvidia Inspector to set up the filtering in a very detailed way. By this, you can alter any kind of mode, separately for the full screen level and the one of the transparent textures, the ones being used at the gauges, trees, fences and so on.

Again, the fact that the game is DX9 based does not imply any downside when it comes to AA. And no DX11 graphics chip will suffer from the fact that it now has to filter the old DX9 game. As the cards grew stronger over the years, you now actually have enough raw power to apply even the most demanding filter levels to FSX and other old games. The more one invests, the more antialiasing he will be able to use without losing too much in cloudy FSX skies.

Now that's the big differentiation one has to make when it comes to FSX and big graphic cards. They don't really raise your fps (unless you compare them to very low budget models), but they can keep your fps steady even when using a lot of AA in cloudy scenes. By this, I absolutely agree that, if one doesn't want or like AA, it's of no use to buy such cards. But, as pointed out, I highly doubt that fuzzy gauge needles and shimmering scenes are what simmers like. I repeat myself when pointing at the fact that PC based gaming happens on low-ish dpi screens. Hence the 'need' for antialiasing, as pointed out in previous posts.

So I have to ask for a bit of patience since my FSX rig is at home while I am not.  Undecided If I get there, I can show some example shots on the 707, which has very nice and sharp gauges but receives a lot of improvement when the transparency antialiasing is in use. In the meantime, the example links given before should do the trick. Note. With moving pictures, the gain is even bigger as the shimmering on the whole scene is largely reduced.


I never denied that better hardware is ultimately better for the simulation, but we were trying to balance performance versus a specific budget, concerning a specific simulation, and specifically for FSX. Remember that was the thrust of the questions by the poster.
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #38 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:20am
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Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:07am:
On my 24" Monitor, with a 1920 x 1080 resolution, if the anti-aliasing is OFF, the aircraft in FSX look terrible (jagged edges), but if I have anti-aliasing ON, they look great (smooth edges). So for me, anti-aliasing turned ON is a must!


I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have the same size monitor at the same resolution, and I see some jaggies, but they are in my opinion very minor, and limited to few visuals.  I have all my settings set to the max, and I get excellent frame rates, with highly detailed aircraft such as another company 737NGX, Aoerosoft Airbus ExtendedX, as well as most Captain Sim products, and I fly into very high resolution airport addons with excellent frame rates, and the visuals in my opinion are very good.
  

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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #39 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 6:45am
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virge wrote on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:10am:
I never denied that better hardware is ultimately better for the simulation, but we were trying to balance performance versus a specific budget, concerning a specific simulation, and specifically for FSX. Remember that was the thrust of the questions by the poster.

Indeed.

So, to avoid any further going in circles, let me point out that your tip, to get a more expensive i7 CPU, was explained as having no effect on FSX. While your tip to stay with a cheaper graphic card (since you personally don't see any use in antialiasing) was somehow ok when having in mind those preferences of yours.

Does that sound reasonable?  Smiley
  
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #40 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:43pm
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There is also nothing wrong with a better graphics card if FSX is not going to be the only "game" you are going to play.
  

Mark Fletcher



PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz | 64GB DDR4 3200 | 12GB RTX 4070 Super | 32" LCD Monitor | 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD | Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #41 - Aug 8th, 2013 at 5:56pm
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Says the FarCry3 player.  Tongue Very good point, Mark.
  
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #42 - Aug 9th, 2013 at 12:23am
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CoolP wrote on Aug 8th, 2013 at 5:56pm:
Says the FarCry3 player.  Tongue Very good point, Mark.

I'm not just into Flight Simming (been playing FC3 for 3 days with only a few small flights in FSX to break the monotony)! Cheesy
Oh. And don't forget GTA IV (hoping for GTA V for PC, but not looking promising yet Sad), Sniper: Ghost Warrior 2, Tombraider (2013) and Max Payne 3, just to mention a few that I play. Cheesy
  

Mark Fletcher



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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #43 - Aug 9th, 2013 at 2:50pm
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Same here. Pretty impressive game lineup to be honest. From now on, I will call you a true gamer instead of 'just' a sim player.  Smiley  Cheesy
  
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Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Reply #44 - Aug 10th, 2013 at 10:26pm
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Hi Guys:
Any advice on the topic of antivirus software. Do you use it? does it get in the way? Etc.... If it is required for protection, what kind do you guys use? I did not see it in the FS guide from Avsim.
Thanks
  

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