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Message started by Bernoulli on Aug 4th, 2013 at 1:56am

Title: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 4th, 2013 at 1:56am
Hi guys:
I was on the cyberpower site and I was thinking about getting this computer for FSX. I was wondering if any of the resident experts see any flaws in the choices I selected. I am not a super hard core gamer, and so I certainly do not need the top of the line as I am trying to keep the cost down but still get a good bang for my buck...i I just want to use FSX with Captain Sim without any major problems. Am I missing anything here?
Thanks so much for any responces. :)

Configuration:
BLUETOOTH: None
CAS: Thermaltake Commander Mid-Tower Gaming Case (Black Color)
CASUPGRADE: None
CD: 24X Double Layer Dual Format DVD+-R/+-RW + CD-R/RW Drive (BLACK COLOR)
CD2: None
COOLANT: Standard Coolant
CPU: Intel® Core™ i5-4670K 3.40 GHz 6MB Intel Smart Cache LGA1150 (All Venom OC Certified)
CS_FAN: Default case fans
ENGRAVING: None
FA_HDD: None
FAN: Asetek 510LC Liquid Cooling System 120MM Radiator & Fan (Enhanced Cooling Performance + Extreme Silent at 20dBA) (Dual Standard 120MM Fans (Push-Pull) [+9])
FLASHMEDIA: None
FREEBIE_CS: None
FREEBIE_VC: None
FREEBIE_VC2: None
GLASSES: None
HDD: 500GB Western Digital Caviar Black SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 7200 RPM HDD [+12] (Single Drive)
HDD2: 500GB Western Digital Caviar Black SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 7200 RPM HDD [+83] (Single Drive)
IEEE_CARD: None
IUSB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
KEYBOARD1: AZZA Multimedia USB Gaming Keyboard [+5]
MB_SRT: None
MEMORY: 8GB (4GBx2) DDR3/1600MHz Dual Channel Memory (ADATA XPG V2)
MONITOR: None
MONITOR2: None
MONITOR3: None
MOTHERBOARD: [CrossFireX] MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate Intel Z87 Chipset DDR3 ATX Mainboard w/ Military Class 4, OC Genie II, 7.1 HD Audio, GbLAN, HDMI, 2 Gen3 PCIe x16, 2x PCI-e & 2 PCI (Pro OC Certified)
MOUSE1: AZZA Optical 1600dpi Gaming Mouse with Weight Adjustable Cartridge [+4]
NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
OS: Microsoft® Windows 7 Home Premium [+0] (64-bit Edition)
OVERCLOCK: Pro OC (Performance Overclock 10% or more) [+19]
POWERSUPPLY: 750 Watts - Corsair CX750 750W 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply [+38]
RUSH: NO; READY TO SHIP IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT
SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
SPEAKERS: None
TABLET: None
TEMP: None
TUNING: None
TVRC: None
USB: None
USBFLASH: None
USBHD: None
USBX: None
VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 2GB 16X PCIe 3.0 Video Card [+31] (Major Brand Powered by NVIDIA)
VIDEO2: None
VIDEO3: None
WNC: PCI Wireless 802.11n 150Mbps Network Interface Card [+19]
_PRICE: (+1016)
_view_: {10787881-A59E-45A0-8462-FE3845748857}
_load_: 8/3/2013 6:31:10 PM
Details | Edit | Remove

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 4th, 2013 at 2:35am
It looks good to me and would be a nice rig for FSX. ;)

As was pointed out to Weston here: http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1374727539, Crossfire doesn't work for Nvidia Graphics Cards, only ATI. So if you have any future plans to add another NVIDIA Graphics Card, you won't be able to. :(

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 4th, 2013 at 11:03pm
Thanks for the reply Mark:
I was thinking about switching the mother board to this gigabiyte board:

MOTHERBOARD: [CrossFireX] GIGABYTE Z87-HD3 Intel Z87 Chipset DDR3 ATX Mainboard w/ Ultra Durable 4 Plus, 7.1 HD Audio, GbLAN, 2 PCIe x16 (1 Gen3, 1 Gen2), 2 PCIe x1 & 2 PCI (Pro OC Certified) [+13]

However...am I understanding you correctly that because it's "crossfire" it will not be capable of adding another GTX GPU?

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:46am
Specs on the Gigabyte Z87-HD3 look good, so it wouldn't be a bad option to the M/B you originally selected.

If you go the way of Nvidia, an SLI only capable motherboard is fine. The same applies with ATI and Crossfire. Having it capable of both usually  costs a bit more. But only if you plan to use more than one Graphics Card! If you only plan for a single GC, it doesn't matter if it's SLI or Crossfire capable. ;)


Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:04pm
Thanks Mark:
Well... I have been doing more research and I think I will have a local computer company build me a computer that is very similar but with a few changes.

I have two questions for anyone in the know about this build:

1. Is this motherboard good?:  ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150

2. As far as storage is it enough storage to have windows 7 on a 120GB SSD, have FSX on a second 120GB SSD, and have evrything else on a 1TB HDD?

Below are the details of the computer:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 650 2GB Video Card   
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: Thermaltake Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)

Thanks for any replies :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 1:38am
You might be able to save a few Dollars since FSX doesn't really benefit from a SSD. So as long as they are relatively small for their price, you might be better off with a large normal disk. Now the OS is very happy about a SSD while 120gb variant for a FSX installation can run out of space pretty quickly. I'm thinking of large photo sceneries or a lot of liveries for your planes. CS offers a lot.  :D

To expand on the performance gains (or lack of). You will see nice loading times with a SSD for FSX but the actual ingame performance and even the texture blurry problems aren't affected at all. Now a SSD doesn't hurt but you are spending a decent amount of money for close to zero overall gains. Not to mention the lack of space.

Perhaps you can alter the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 to something like a 660, 660Ti or 760. If you are running antialiasing settings with FSX, you will see a better performance (which actually just means less loss) with the 660 and above. The 650 is very limited in that regard and lacks of memory bandwidth for example. Should be most noticeable in clouds as those drain a lot of fps when being run with higher antialiasing settings.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 6th, 2013 at 1:52am
Thanks for the reply CoolP:
If Windows 7 is on one 120GB SSD will FSX and all the add ons from Capatain Sim etc, run fine on a 1TB hard drive @ 7200 RPM?

I was thinking that FSX needs to be on it's own drive without other stuff... Or is that win 7 that is best left alone on it's own storage device?

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 6th, 2013 at 4:26am

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:04pm:
Thanks Mark:
Well... I have been doing more research and I think I will have a local computer company build me a computer that is very similar but with a few changes.

I have two questions for anyone in the know about this build:

1. Is this motherboard good?:  ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150

2. As far as storage is it enough storage to have windows 7 on a 120GB SSD, have FSX on a second 120GB SSD, and have evrything else on a 1TB HDD?

Below are the details of the computer:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 650 2GB Video Card   
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: Thermaltake Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)

Thanks for any replies :)


If you are buying a new rig that you intend to use mostly for FSX, then there are some different choices you should make especially if you have a limited budget. If your budget is wide open then the choice is easy. Now back to the question of what is best for FSX. First of all FSX is CPU intensive, meaning that FSX benefits most in performance with a fast CPU. If you have to choose between a powerful video card, and a powerful CPU, then the CPU is the clear choice, when it comes to FSX. A quad core CPU such as an i7 3770 or better, is a better choice then an i5, because there also other features in an i7 besides speed that are superior to an i5. The video card does not have to be the best, given the fact FSX is not able to use some of the features that the latest, and greatest video cards can provide. FSX is old code that utilizes directX 9c. If you are going to be running 64 bit programs, then Windows 7 professional is a good choice, but if your programs are 32 bit code based, then Windows 7 Premium is a better choice, because Windows 7 premium is cheaper in price. The reason I say this, is because unless you are going to use the professional version for other things besides FSX, and other games, then there is no benefit. Also the best that FSX can access is 4 GB of ram, and that is providing you are using any version of Windows 7 64 bit. The advantage of having Windows 7 Professional over the Premium version is that the Professional version can access a lot more ram then the Premium version can. Of course this ability to access more of your ram is irrelevant unless you have a game or program that is written in 64 bit code, which FSX is not. When it comes to FSX, SSD drives are not going to give you much benefit. If your monitor displays natively 1920x1080 or higher, I believe anti-aliasing is more of a hindrance on performance, and is not worth the small improvement at these higher resolutions. Two separate physical drives is a good idea. An SSD drive is a very good idea for Windows 7, and some other programs, but not so much for FSX. Finally multiple video cards are a good idea for most newer programs, but NOT for FSX. hope this helps. The general thinking is that windows 7 should be on its own drive, and your games especially FSX on another separate drive.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 6th, 2013 at 7:28am

virge wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 4:26am:

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:04pm:
Thanks Mark:
Well... I have been doing more research and I think I will have a local computer company build me a computer that is very similar but with a few changes.

I have two questions for anyone in the know about this build:

1. Is this motherboard good?:  ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150

2. As far as storage is it enough storage to have windows 7 on a 120GB SSD, have FSX on a second 120GB SSD, and have evrything else on a 1TB HDD?

Below are the details of the computer:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 650 2GB Video Card   
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: Thermaltake Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)

Thanks for any replies :)
The general thinking is that windows 7 should be on its own drive, and your games especially FSX on another separate drive.


So if I am on a buget, which I am, would you suggest I nix one of the two 120GB SSD's and just go with a single 120GB SSD plus a 1TB hard drive?
Thanks :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 1:58pm
I once thought that SSDs would give FSX a boost. So I ran a few. As mentioned, only the loading times were nice, the rest remained unchanged. So now it's sitting on a large mechanical disk, in the way you are describing it, one exclusively for FSX and the OS then sits on a SSD. Should be the cheapest and largest solution these days.

Now, if you would plan to keep your FSX folder very small, the 120gb SSD won't harm you. It's just that one can exceed that limit rather quickly. So if there was a larger benefit and if the prices in relation to the size were lower, I'd say it would be more of a go.

A few points to virge's post.

Quote:
If your monitor displays natively 1920x1080 or higher, I believe anti-aliasing is more of a hindrance on performance, and is not worth the small improvement at these higher resolutions.

I beg to differ. A lot actually, since you don't seem to relate to the image quality improvements on especially analogue gauges in the VC. You can only receive those if you run a method called transparency antialiasing which, usually, isn't as demanding in other games. Now FSX features the rather old-ish system for displaying clouds, which renders (literally) any kind of antialiasing a bigger hurdle, even for modern cards. Cloudy skies need the big cards when it comes to using image quality enhancements. Hence my note on the GTX650 being everything else than a big one. The small step to e.g. a GTX660(Ti) will help a lot.

You are right with saying that a LCD running at the native resolution ensures a good image quality, but since we are not running any high dpi displays with desktop PCs (like e.g. mobile devices would do), the need for antialiasing isn't broken. In fact, it's even more stressed and I doubt that people who ever saw the improvements on the gauges in the cockpit (means lines on digital ones and needles on analogue) will want to go back. Same goes for looking at how fences are rendered or how the edges of the trees come in. Any edges to be precise.

Examples.
Here's one shot from another DX9 engine showing a single tree without and with antialiasing. http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMyMjQ1MzM1NG1SdFV6cExsSmZfM18yX2wucG5n Now one may think 'would I ever see the difference when the picture is moving?' That's a good question and the answer is yes. People often refer to the effect as 'shimmering' as the movement causes the sharp edges to sort of.. shimmer.

For folks asking 'what is antialiasing and why would I ever need it?', perhaps Wikipedia helps to explain the basics. But I've found the articles really working with pictures to be better. For example, take this one explaining the method especially for fine lines. http://www.anandtech.com/show/2116/13

For more basics, more pictures and more examples, this one is very good. http://www.overclock.net/t/1329979/anti-aliasing-the-basics

It mainly describes why lines come in 'edgy' on low dpi (dots per inch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch) screens like the ones we are running on a PC. If any of you would run a very modern '4K' screen, this low dpi statement doesn't apply. For the rest, it does. If you want to see high dpi screens in action which would indeed render antialiasing useless, pick some of your friend's phones and tablets. Mind that they have the 'retina' displays (as Apple calls them) or just head for a current Samsung or HTC model. Those are very high dpi displays (350+ dpi) where you can't make out the single pixel basis with the naked eye. Hence the marketing name. As said, for normal PC displays, this high dpi scenario isn't really available. At least it's very expensive and card would have to render the native 4K resolution which is 3840 pixels × 2160. Only when being run on a 'small' display, you will achieve high dpi though.

So, in short, low dpi displays like ours will always need a picture improvement like antialiasing and texture filtering to allow for a sharp and non-shimmering impression.  :)


For the guys wanting to try certain antialiasing methods, perhaps check out the ones being labelled supersampling. Those can work full screen and/or just on transparent textures. And the image quality gains are huge while, the higher you go, the performance demands also increase. That's actually the way to stress modern cards, even in other games, since no one will run a GTX680 without antialiasing when it's available. Fps gains are only one factor for huge cards, image quality is the other one.

So if you haven't tried it so far or always wondered how it works, looks and feels, I'd encourage you to do so. To be honest, the fact of never having tried would be the only way I can imagine someone saying that it 'is not worth the small improvement.'  [smiley=undecided.gif]

Since I'm currently far away from my FSX, I can't provide some personal screenshots. But I'll be happy to do so with one of my favourite planes, the 707. With the analogue gauges, it's very obvious how transparency antialiasing helps and why I'd even call it mandatory. Not to forget that the scenery around you, especially trees, receives an enhancement too. With 'bigger' cards, that's possible.  :)


Quote:

A quad core CPU such as an i7 3770 or better, is a better choice then an i5, because there also other features in an i7 besides speed that are superior to an i5

The i5 processor Bernoulli was planning on is a quad core. The i7 model features the so called Hyper-Threading feature which doesn't do much for FSX. That's from my experience running such a CPU, disabling HT and then testing FSX. No difference.

When comparing current Haswell CPU cores (which he planned on), we are talking about two main differences on the i5 vs. i7 cores. The existence of the mentioned Hyper-Threading feature and 8mb over 6mb 3rd level cache. When running at the same clock speeds, FSX won't care for the HT and does not react to the extra cache. So the main gain for extra performance will happen when increasing the core clocks, which any 'K' model will allow. By this, Bernoulli may have picked just the right model as this is a 'K' and also comes in way cheaper than the corresponding i7 variant.

If he would want to run other applications, especially scientific or video encoding ones and/or if the price difference wouldn't be as big, I would agree with the i7 being the way better choice. Currently, for FSX only, I very much doubt that in value terms.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 6th, 2013 at 3:43pm
Thanks for the comments Coolp. :)

So... Is there any problem with FSX on a 1TB hard drive with other programs too? I don't plan on putting too much other stuff on the hard drive with FSX... Maybe just MS Office and some other small stuff. That will not compromise the performance of FSX will it?

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 4:49pm
Relevant question of yours. Well, the thinking is to avoid disk access when FSX is running. Hence the need to keep the OS 'there' and FSX 'somewhere else'. Physical borders. The OS always does something on the disk.

So it doesn't matter if you put other things than the OS on the FSX disk, as long as the OS can do its stuff and, when FSX is running, no other programs access the special FSX disk. The only downside with placing other programs on that disk will be the loss of space (not very relevant with drives >1tb) and the increased fragmentation (slightly relevant, but manageable). The latter being a pro point for SSDs i've missed so far, they don't need to defrag but it's not like mechanical drives (especially the ones offering much free space) demand a defrag run every week or so.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 6th, 2013 at 5:12pm
Thanks CoolP... That answers my question. I will go with one 120GB SSD drive for windows 7 all by its self, and a 1TB hard drive for FSX and Office and anything else. Thanks for all the replies! :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 6th, 2013 at 6:36pm
FWIW -- Conventional wisdom, from almost the beginning, says FSX should reside on it's own, dedicated hard drive. I won't quote the AVSIM FSX Guide because it's copyrighted, however the AVSIM Software and Hardware Guide for FSX was assembled, and is maintained, by Paul Johnson and is available to members on the AVSIM Forum. If you read Nicks *FSX Bible* over at SimForums it's covered in even more depth. Nick, as abrasive as he sometimes is, is still the ultimate FSX Guru -- all things considered. (my opinion)

Ideally, you should have 3 drives - one for the OS, one for FSX and one for all the other stuff.

Too, I have also read, many times, that a mechanical drive should not be filled beyond 60-65% and an SSD drive not beyond 80% for maximum efficiency. That should also be a consideration when determining the size of storage.


Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 7:36pm
I hope you don't mind me asking. Can you explain, perhaps in your own words, why other programs and data would interfere in any way with the drive FSX is on? We are always talking about programs and data not being accessed while FSX is running. Technical background.

Now the case for separating the OS drive from FSX one was made and, I think, isn't in question. So I wonder why we should recommend getting at least three drives (OS, FSX, 'others') for a system with limited budget.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 6th, 2013 at 7:50pm
Hey, CoolP!

I can't explain any of this!!   ;D  

Here's da man though ---

http://www.simforums.com/forums/haswell-48ghz-on-air-building-a-haswell-system_topic46180_post278434.html#278434

Budget or no --- 3 drives are the way to go!! Surely he can squeeze out a few more $$ for a third 500Gb mechanical drive -- or maybe 2x500Gb instead of one Tb. I haven't priced that opyion, but I doubt it would break the bank!??

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:13pm
Thanks for the link.

I've also checked on the Avsim guide to look for an explanation (which can be very technical of course). Now the Nick and the Avsim guide are similar when it comes to 'telling' something. Don't read this the wrong way, I'm not saying this sort of spreading information is wrong or that the info itself is.  But I find it easier to follow a recommendation if the background is given and can be explained. University style.

Now what I did, being the owner of plenty of drives, is to test out if my Crysis3 or AutoCAD installation affect the FSX drive in any way. It doesn't, since there's no access happening. I've measured it and even checked my subjective impression. The latter with the help of my gf which set up a blind test for me. This avoids running into what's call the confirmation bias. Mainly, when you know that your drive is 'cleaner', you 'will see it' even if there isn't any sign at all. Human factors, huh?   :o

So when you don't know if your gf has copied over the Crysis and AutoCAD files, you are looking at your FSX in the most objective way. To be honest, I used her skills on some more tests, which was easy as she's interested in the general testing topic. Guess we share that much.  :D

Back to the drives and guides. I could read the Nick stuff in more than one way. As so often with text. I prefer formulas or the mentioned technical background. Other than the reasons given in a previous post (http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1375581365/11#11), I can't find anything technical which would suggest a 'better' system with three drives.

The Avsim guide does the same. It tells people to do something (not being bad at all, but perhaps having zero influence on their sim) and expects them to follow this guidance. Repeating it then makes it true. And you actually repeat it, this being the reason I asked you by the way. :) Now if they would add a chapter on the technical background and/or testing, I'd be much happier with it.

In short, I do read what they say, but I can't follow or support it without extra info. Hence my suggestion, especially for a budget system, to stay with two disks. No harm done and most likely some money saved.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:41pm
This guy Nick has credentials as long as your arm. If you want to challenge his knowledge and expertise or even ask for technical data back up give me a few minutes to get the beer and popcorn -- cuz this I would like to witness!!  ;D

Seriously, why don't you join the SimForums and ask what he bases this on. I don't really care, because I'm not interested in the really technical stuff, nor would I understand--- but it would be interesting to observe!! In fact I double dog dare ya!!!   ;)

Btw, Nick is the author of Ground Environment X.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by AndersCN on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:50pm
Hi Bernoulli,

You are almost there with this setup.

However, I would like to add a few comments;

I think that you should get Asrock z87m Extreme4 or Z87 Extreme4 instead of Extreme3. The reason being that the Extreme4 boards come with 8 and 12 phase power systems, which is preferable when overclocking. Alternatively, Asus z87 Gryphon or MSI Z87 GD45 could be considered - both have 8 phase power design.

Secondly, with an i5 4670K cpu, I wouldn´t consider anything less than a GTX 760 GPU. If you really want to minimize shimmering, jaggies etc, high AA and AF settings would be needed, which is very hard on the GPU, and independent of the CPU. Remember, I´m here talking about Image Quality, not frames per second.
When I fly in heavily clouded areas (REX E clouds), my GTX 570 often becomes the bottleneck in my old AMD based rig... Hence, I would definately not ignore the importance of a powerful GPU with FSX.

Thirdly, regarding the harddisk configuration; A 120GB SSD for windows 7-64 bit, and a 500 GB WD Velociraptor for FSX+ addons, would be fine, and cost less than having only SSD´s.
Today I´m using a 250 GB Velociraptor for FSX, storing all my FS Global 2010 mesh and REX Essentials Plus OD on a slower 1 TB WD Black. This works fine, and loading is much faster than when I had everything on one big C-drive.

And finally, you should also consider Nick N´s Windows 7 tweaks. Made my OS much snappier, and uses less RAM.
Avsims/Kostas/Nick´s mods in FSX shouldn´t be regarded as "tweaks". I would rather call it Service Pack 3 for FSX..

Just my experience and what I would do if I should upgrade.

BR,
Anders

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 6th, 2013 at 9:25pm

btscott wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:41pm:
but it would be interesting to observe!! In fact I double dog dare ya!!!   ;)

Haha, I see, it's all about the show.  :P But, more seriously, isn't he just receiving or posting a lot of stuff concerning the new FTX (=competition) release?

We wouldn't be the flight sim community if we wouldn't fight over just some textures, eh? :o ;D

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 6th, 2013 at 10:45pm
Well, he has a few personality flaws (I don't  :)) but he has been the go-to-guy for many years on all aspects of FS hardware and software. He has guided most of the FS community from his throne for a long, long time, and when we had less impressive hardware a few years ago he was a miracle worker for all of us. He was in contact with Phil Taylor lead programmer for MS Aces when FSX was released, and he now even consults with Nvidia. The folks at O&O Defrag took his advice as well. As AndersCN mentioned above, he even has an extensive Windows 7 tweaking guide (makes me dizzy)! So if you challenge him --- bring your *A* game!

Nick can be abrasive and condescending to the point of being insulting. He WAS the main poster on AVSIM for years until he was rebuked by T. Allensworth a couple years ago for his style. So he took his bat and ball and went home. He now posts only on SimForums. If you go there and read all his guides and posts it will take you about 6 months!

Yes, he is defensive regarding GEX vs FTX Global, but he does have a couple valid points. Unfortunately his style makes it look like sour grapes and bitterness. The community really needs him though -- so I think we should take up a collection and get him some sensitivity training!   ::)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:27am

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 7:28am:

virge wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 4:26am:

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 5th, 2013 at 11:04pm:
Thanks Mark:
Well... I have been doing more research and I think I will have a local computer company build me a computer that is very similar but with a few changes.

I have two questions for anyone in the know about this build:

1. Is this motherboard good?:  ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150

2. As far as storage is it enough storage to have windows 7 on a 120GB SSD, have FSX on a second 120GB SSD, and have evrything else on a 1TB HDD?

Below are the details of the computer:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 650 2GB Video Card   
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: Thermaltake Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)

Thanks for any replies :)
The general thinking is that windows 7 should be on its own drive, and your games especially FSX on another separate drive.


So if I am on a buget, which I am, would you suggest I nix one of the two 120GB SSD's and just go with a single 120GB SSD plus a 1TB hard drive?
Thanks :)


I agree with CoolP about the SSD drives.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:38am

CoolP wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 1:58pm:
I once thought that SSDs would give FSX a boost. So I ran a few. As mentioned, only the loading times were nice, the rest remained unchanged. So now it's sitting on a large mechanical disk, in the way you are describing it, one exclusively for FSX and the OS then sits on a SSD. Should be the cheapest and largest solution these days.

Now, if you would plan to keep your FSX folder very small, the 120gb SSD won't harm you. It's just that one can exceed that limit rather quickly. So if there was a larger benefit and if the prices in relation to the size were lower, I'd say it would be more of a go.

A few points to virge's post.

Quote:
If your monitor displays natively 1920x1080 or higher, I believe anti-aliasing is more of a hindrance on performance, and is not worth the small improvement at these higher resolutions.

I beg to differ. A lot actually, since you don't seem to relate to the image quality improvements on especially analogue gauges in the VC. You can only receive those if you run a method called transparency antialiasing which, usually, isn't as demanding in other games. Now FSX features the rather old-ish system for displaying clouds, which renders (literally) any kind of antialiasing a bigger hurdle, even for modern cards. Cloudy skies need the big cards when it comes to using image quality enhancements. Hence my note on the GTX650 being everything else than a big one. The small step to e.g. a GTX660(Ti) will help a lot.

You are right with saying that a LCD running at the native resolution ensures a good image quality, but since we are not running any high dpi displays with desktop PCs (like e.g. mobile devices would do), the need for antialiasing isn't broken. In fact, it's even more stressed and I doubt that people who ever saw the improvements on the gauges in the cockpit (means lines on digital ones and needles on analogue) will want to go back. Same goes for looking at how fences are rendered or how the edges of the trees come in. Any edges to be precise.

Examples.
Here's one shot from another DX9 engine showing a single tree without and with antialiasing. http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTMyMjQ1MzM1NG1SdFV6cExsSmZfM18yX2wucG5n Now one may think 'would I ever see the difference when the picture is moving?' That's a good question and the answer is yes. People often refer to the effect as 'shimmering' as the movement causes the sharp edges to sort of.. shimmer.

For folks asking 'what is antialiasing and why would I ever need it?', perhaps Wikipedia helps to explain the basics. But I've found the articles really working with pictures to be better. For example, take this one explaining the method especially for fine lines. http://www.anandtech.com/show/2116/13

For more basics, more pictures and more examples, this one is very good. http://www.overclock.net/t/1329979/anti-aliasing-the-basics

It mainly describes why lines come in 'edgy' on low dpi (dots per inch, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch) screens like the ones we are running on a PC. If any of you would run a very modern '4K' screen, this low dpi statement doesn't apply. For the rest, it does. If you want to see high dpi screens in action which would indeed render antialiasing useless, pick some of your friend's phones and tablets. Mind that they have the 'retina' displays (as Apple calls them) or just head for a current Samsung or HTC model. Those are very high dpi displays (350+ dpi) where you can't make out the single pixel basis with the naked eye. Hence the marketing name. As said, for normal PC displays, this high dpi scenario isn't really available. At least it's very expensive and card would have to render the native 4K resolution which is 3840 pixels × 2160. Only when being run on a 'small' display, you will achieve high dpi though.

So, in short, low dpi displays like ours will always need a picture improvement like antialiasing and texture filtering to allow for a sharp and non-shimmering impression.  :)


For the guys wanting to try certain antialiasing methods, perhaps check out the ones being labelled supersampling. Those can work full screen and/or just on transparent textures. And the image quality gains are huge while, the higher you go, the performance demands also increase. That's actually the way to stress modern cards, even in other games, since no one will run a GTX680 without antialiasing when it's available. Fps gains are only one factor for huge cards, image quality is the other one.

So if you haven't tried it so far or always wondered how it works, looks and feels, I'd encourage you to do so. To be honest, the fact of never having tried would be the only way I can imagine someone saying that it 'is not worth the small improvement.'  [smiley=undecided.gif]

Since I'm currently far away from my FSX, I can't provide some personal screenshots. But I'll be happy to do so with one of my favourite planes, the 707. With the analogue gauges, it's very obvious how transparency antialiasing helps and why I'd even call it mandatory. Not to forget that the scenery around you, especially trees, receives an enhancement too. With 'bigger' cards, that's possible.  :)

[quote]
A quad core CPU such as an i7 3770 or better, is a better choice then an i5, because there also other features in an i7 besides speed that are superior to an i5

The i5 processor Bernoulli was planning on is a quad core. The i7 model features the so called Hyper-Threading feature which doesn't do much for FSX. That's from my experience running such a CPU, disabling HT and then testing FSX. No difference.

When comparing current Haswell CPU cores (which he planned on), we are talking about two main differences on the i5 vs. i7 cores. The existence of the mentioned Hyper-Threading feature and 8mb over 6mb 3rd level cache. When running at the same clock speeds, FSX won't care for the HT and does not react to the extra cache. So the main gain for extra performance will happen when increasing the core clocks, which any 'K' model will allow. By this, Bernoulli may have picked just the right model as this is a 'K' and also comes in way cheaper than the corresponding i7 variant.

If he would want to run other applications, especially scientific or video encoding ones and/or if the price difference wouldn't be as big, I would agree with the i7 being the way better choice. Currently, for FSX only, I very much doubt that in value terms.[/quote]

I "never" stated that anti-aliasing is a bad thing, but rather in the case of FSX, which is a directX 9 product, and as such can not take advantage of the features in superior cards that support directX 11 , and the fact that it seems he is on a budget, I still believe that anti-aliasing is of limited value in this situation. I have used anti-aliasing in FSX, and I see very little difference at high resolutions.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:42am

btscott wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 6:36pm:
FWIW -- Conventional wisdom, from almost the beginning, says FSX should reside on it's own, dedicated hard drive. I won't quote the AVSIM FSX Guide because it's copyrighted, however the AVSIM Software and Hardware Guide for FSX was assembled, and is maintained, by Paul Johnson and is available to members on the AVSIM Forum. If you read Nicks *FSX Bible* over at SimForums it's covered in even more depth. Nick, as abrasive as he sometimes is, is still the ultimate FSX Guru -- all things considered. (my opinion)

Ideally, you should have 3 drives - one for the OS, one for FSX and one for all the other stuff.

Too, I have also read, many times, that a mechanical drive should not be filled beyond 60-65% and an SSD drive not beyond 80% for maximum efficiency. That should also be a consideration when determining the size of storage.



I tend to think that three drives for the reasons you give, is overkill. Of course it is not necessarily a bad thing to have three drives, but I think two in this instance is sufficient.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:57am
Thanks for the tips AndersCN, however it is too late now. The gentleman who is building this computer for has already ordered the parts. He was also kind enough to upgrade my GPU from an EVGA GTX 650 To a gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb.
I'll let Ya'll know how it all works in the next couple weeks.
The final build details are as follows:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb OC
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb. Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)  

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:02am

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 3:43pm:
Thanks for the comments Coolp. :)

So... Is there any problem with FSX on a 1TB hard drive with other programs too? I don't plan on putting too much other stuff on the hard drive with FSX... Maybe just MS Office and some other small stuff. That will not compromise the performance of FSX will it?


Like i previously stated, FSX is CPU intensive, and as such the faster the clock speed of the CPU the better. All other hardware is secondary to the CPU in the case of FSX. Anti-aliasing in many cases is more of a personal preference, since different people place different value in its worth. Sort of like saying it is in the eye of the beholder. Now having said that, anti-aliasing, and all other advancements in computer hardware, all give an overall better experience for the user, but when a budget is limited, then some choices must be made. In the case of anti-aliasing as one example, it is a relative resource hog, given the fact that when a person has an issue with FPS in FSX, one of the very first remedies is to reduce or even disable anti-aliasing in order to achieve better frame rates. After all if your simulation is going to look like a slide show rather then a fluid motion picture, then your experience is going to be ruined. In the end it is your choice, but my advice is to buy the best that you can afford. It is true that in raw clock speed, and the limitations of FSX, that an i5 is probably just as good as an i7, but you should also consider trying to maximize your investment as well by buying something that will have a longer lifespan.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:05am

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:57am:
Thanks for the tips AndersCN, however it is too late now. The gentleman who is building this computer for has already ordered the parts. He was also kind enough to upgrade my GPU from an EVGA GTX 650 To a gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb.
I'll let Ya'll know how it all works in the next couple weeks.
The final build details are as follows:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor 
CPU Cooler: Corsair H60 54.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory  
Storage: Sandisk Extreme 120GB 2.5" Solid State Disk 
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  
Video Card: gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb OC
Wireless Network Adapter: Rosewill RNX-N250PCe 802.11b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter  
Case: gigabyte grforce 650ti 2gb. Commander MS-I Epic Edition (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair Professional 750W 80 PLUS Gold Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply 
Optical Drive: LG GH24NS95 DVD/CD Writer
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 (OEM) (64-bit)  


What was the difference in cost between Windows 7 64 bit Premium to Windows 764 bit Professional, if you don't mind my asking.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:22am
Two drives it is!! My last comment would be to put FSX and all FSX add-ons(nothing else) on the 1 Tb drive and w7, MS Office and anything else on the SSD. FSX will be happier with it's own home.

A direct quote from Nick Needham -

HARD DRIVE TIPS FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE (ALL DRIVE TYPES):

- WHEN SSD SPACE IS LIMITED DUE TO ADDON SPACE CONSUMPTION, USE THE LARGEST MECHANICAL DISK PLATTER DRIVE FOR A DEDICATED FSX INSTALL

- DO NOT INSTALL LARGE DATABASE ADDONS (REX-GEX-FEX-AS2012, ETC) TO THE FSX DRIVE OR WINDOWS, POINT THEM TO A 'DEAD STORAGE' DRIVE **

- WHEN EVER POSSIBLE, USE SATA CLASS SSD -OR- PCIE STORAGE CONTROLLERS FOR THE BEST DISK PERFORMANCE WITH FSX

- RUN FSX AND PRIMARY ADDONS THAT REQUIRE INSTALLATION DIRECTLY INTO FSX ON ITS OWN DEDICATED HARD DRIVE

- INSTALL LARGE PHOTOSCENERY DATABASES TO THEIR OWN DEDICATED HARD DRIVE(S) AND POINT FSX TO IT

- MULTIPLE DISK SYSTEMS ARE FAR BETTER AND ALLOW MORE OPTIONS THAN SINGLE

- DON'T FALL FOR THE "HYBRID MECHANICAL DRIVE" OR 'CACHE' MARKETING GAME

- YOUR SATA CABLES MUST BE RATED FOR THE PORT AND DRIVE SPEED

- PSU MUST BE RATED WITH A LARGE NUMBER OF DISKS

- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 'TOO MANY' DISKS

- RAID IS NONSENSE AND A WASTE

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 7th, 2013 at 5:40am
So I am new to FSX...and I would like to get it set up on my new computer properly and then apply Captain Sim software. This may sound dumb, but I'm a bit confused about FSX Gold and Acceleration. should I purchase FSX gold version and also Acceleration, or can I just buy acceleration by itself?

I'm thinking I will need FSX gold and then add acceleration as it contains both SP1 and SP2. Am I wrong about this?

Also, any suggestions on where to get a good deal on purchasing FS software?

Thanks guys :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:03am
The gold version should include the acceleration pack. But I think they come on separate disks, so you should install FSX itself and then run the acceleration addon installer, which should take care of updating the base version to the latest one. That's from 2007 by the way. See how old the soft is?  :-/


virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:02am:
Anti-aliasing in many cases is more of a personal preference, since different people place different value in its worth.

I very much agree although I'd like to point out that the reference links given in my previous post should show a bit of the image improvement coming in with using antialiasing. And, as said, I'm happy to provide some example shots with a very good candidate for the use of antialiasing, the VC of the CS 707. Beautiful as it is, those gauges need a proper environment. And that's just one example.


Quote:
when a person has an issue with FPS in FSX, one of the very first remedies is to reduce or even disable anti-aliasing in order to achieve better frame rates.

That's most likely where we differ a lot. I wouldn't sacrifice antialiasing and I also doubt that the low fps scenarios in FSX are caused by it. If your approach or departure at a crowded airport comes in with low fps, you are most likely seeing the CPU limit of the old sim engine. Therefore, the remedy would either be to increase the CPU speed or to lower the scene's detail. No change on the antialiasing.

Low fps due to the use of (too much) antialiasing might happen in clouds, hence the tip to go the rather small step from the GTX650 to 660. The product name numbers of those cards may be close but the performance increase is very significant. In fact, it's pretty much the largest increase in performance on the whole Nvidia lineup with just going one model further. So the next step, which would be from going from the 660Ti to the 670, is much smaller for example.

I think that, with picking the 660Ti, the OP has made the right choice to allow for even cloudy skies to receive proper and fast filtering. I myself only run a GTX570 (which gets outperformed by the 660) and can happily report some good performance in cloudy skies. Now if I would crank up the antialiasing some more or if I had a smaller card, I would see more impact. So, on that point, we may agree to some extent.


Quote:
i5 is probably just as good as an i7, but you should also consider trying to maximize your investment as well by buying something that will have a longer lifespan.

Partial agreement. But it's a case by case decision. When looking at the current prices for the i7 and 'corresponding' i5 CPU and the close to zero effect on FSX when it comes to the small technical differences, a 'longer lifespan' can't be assumed. Even on a modern sim engine, which would be X-Plane, the i5 doesn't lack of any power as the modern sim engine makes more use of a modern graphic card. So, for this future and lifespan, you are equal on the old FSX engine and better off with the larger graphics card on e.g. X-Plane or DCS World.

The examples for making use of the i7 incorporated tech were given before. They did not include any current sim engine. That's from testing all of them. So, indeed, there is a choice to be made when it comes to buying the stuff and, most of all, looking at the price steps for getting the bigger equipment.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am
FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:44am

virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:38am:

I "never" stated that anti-aliasing is a bad thing, but rather in the case of FSX, which is a directX 9 product, and as such can not take advantage of the features in superior cards that support directX 11

I think we need to remind ourselves about the fact that antialiasing itself isn't bound to any API (DirectX 9 vs 10 and 11). So you can and will have the ability to filter regardless of the API in use. To add, my example links showed two other DirectX9 titles, Skyrim and Half-Life2. http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1375581365/9#9

Now there are differences when it comes to forcing the graphics driver to make use of antialiasing. With DX9 based titels, you can force the use on the driver level while the standard for DX10 and above aims to keep the options application based. So the games themselves are supposed to offer a menu. Side note. Later graphic drivers from Nvidia and AMD also allowed to enforce AA on DX10+ titles, at least for some.

In the case of FSX (and P3D by the way), we are somehow lucky to look at mainly DX9 based engines (with the FSX 'DX10 preview' being the exception) as we can make use of tools like Nvidia Inspector to set up the filtering in a very detailed way. By this, you can alter any kind of mode, separately for the full screen level and the one of the transparent textures, the ones being used at the gauges, trees, fences and so on.

Again, the fact that the game is DX9 based does not imply any downside when it comes to AA. And no DX11 graphics chip will suffer from the fact that it now has to filter the old DX9 game. As the cards grew stronger over the years, you now actually have enough raw power to apply even the most demanding filter levels to FSX and other old games. The more one invests, the more antialiasing he will be able to use without losing too much in cloudy FSX skies.

Now that's the big differentiation one has to make when it comes to FSX and big graphic cards. They don't really raise your fps (unless you compare them to very low budget models), but they can keep your fps steady even when using a lot of AA in cloudy scenes. By this, I absolutely agree that, if one doesn't want or like AA, it's of no use to buy such cards. But, as pointed out, I highly doubt that fuzzy gauge needles and shimmering scenes are what simmers like. I repeat myself when pointing at the fact that PC based gaming happens on low-ish dpi screens. Hence the 'need' for antialiasing, as pointed out in previous posts.

So I have to ask for a bit of patience since my FSX rig is at home while I am not.  :-/ If I get there, I can show some example shots on the 707, which has very nice and sharp gauges but receives a lot of improvement when the transparency antialiasing is in use. In the meantime, the example links given before should do the trick. Note. With moving pictures, the gain is even bigger as the shimmering on the whole scene is largely reduced.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:07am
On my 24" Monitor, with a 1920 x 1080 resolution, if the anti-aliasing is OFF, the aircraft in FSX look terrible (jagged edges), but if I have anti-aliasing ON, they look great (smooth edges). So for me, anti-aliasing turned ON is a must!

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 7th, 2013 at 11:14am

Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am:
FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)


Thanks Mark and CoolP...that answers my question. I will purchase FSX Gold.
:D

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 7th, 2013 at 3:11pm
Makes sense. It's the latest version, so to speak. And the cheapest package for it. Well, when you get your new system, perhaps also download the X-Plane demo or the demo for DCS World. Just to check some new sim engines and see how your new rig performs there. Won't hurt, it's just a more or less large download.  :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 8th, 2013 at 12:31am

CoolP wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:03am:
The gold version should include the acceleration pack. But I think they come on separate disks, so you should install FSX itself and then run the acceleration addon installer, which should take care of updating the base version to the latest one. That's from 2007 by the way. See how old the soft is?  :-/


virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 2:02am:
Anti-aliasing in many cases is more of a personal preference, since different people place different value in its worth.

I very much agree although I'd like to point out that the reference links given in my previous post should show a bit of the image improvement coming in with using antialiasing. And, as said, I'm happy to provide some example shots with a very good candidate for the use of antialiasing, the VC of the CS 707. Beautiful as it is, those gauges need a proper environment. And that's just one example.


Quote:
when a person has an issue with FPS in FSX, one of the very first remedies is to reduce or even disable anti-aliasing in order to achieve better frame rates.

That's most likely where we differ a lot. I wouldn't sacrifice antialiasing and I also doubt that the low fps scenarios in FSX are caused by it. If your approach or departure at a crowded airport comes in with low fps, you are most likely seeing the CPU limit of the old sim engine. Therefore, the remedy would either be to increase the CPU speed or to lower the scene's detail. No change on the antialiasing.

Low fps due to the use of (too much) antialiasing might happen in clouds, hence the tip to go the rather small step from the GTX650 to 660. The product name numbers of those cards may be close but the performance increase is very significant. In fact, it's pretty much the largest increase in performance on the whole Nvidia lineup with just going one model further. So the next step, which would be from going from the 660Ti to the 670, is much smaller for example.

I think that, with picking the 660Ti, the OP has made the right choice to allow for even cloudy skies to receive proper and fast filtering. I myself only run a GTX570 (which gets outperformed by the 660) and can happily report some good performance in cloudy skies. Now if I would crank up the antialiasing some more or if I had a smaller card, I would see more impact. So, on that point, we may agree to some extent.

[quote]i5 is probably just as good as an i7, but you should also consider trying to maximize your investment as well by buying something that will have a longer lifespan.

Partial agreement. But it's a case by case decision. When looking at the current prices for the i7 and 'corresponding' i5 CPU and the close to zero effect on FSX when it comes to the small technical differences, a 'longer lifespan' can't be assumed. Even on a modern sim engine, which would be X-Plane, the i5 doesn't lack of any power as the modern sim engine makes more use of a modern graphic card. So, for this future and lifespan, you are equal on the old FSX engine and better off with the larger graphics card on e.g. X-Plane or DCS World.

The examples for making use of the i7 incorporated tech were given before. They did not include any current sim engine. That's from testing all of them. So, indeed, there is a choice to be made when it comes to buying the stuff and, most of all, looking at the price steps for getting the bigger equipment.
[/quote]

Yes you are correct. the gold edition of FSX does come on two separate discs. Also both discs have to be activated separately as well. The acceleration disc also contains both updates as well.

Let me be clear about anti-aliasing. I still contend that anti-aliasing is a personal preference, but that is not to say that anti-aliasing has no value in certain instances. Anti-aliasing is also a relative resource hog, which is not a concern IF you have a powerful computer. So when buying a computer on a limited budget, anti-aliasing is not a priority considering all the other features in a program such as FSX, which in my opinion, give a much better bang for the buck, with an overall better FPS. It is not necessary that you provide example shots, because I have compared many examples myself, and the VC of all my aircraft look beautiful, and clear, and sharp at a high resolution and NO anti-aliasing.

It is true that there are many other features of FSX such as scenery detail, scenery density for example that eat up FPS, but these are much more important to the overall visual effect, and realism then anti-aliasing. I agree that there are many things one can do to improve performance, but anti-aliasing is the better way to go if FPS are an issue. Starting by reducing or disabling anti-aliasing, and then progressing from there if required is the better way to go. In the case of increasing CPU speed, which I previously stated, is indeed the best solution.

You mention different video cards, which when it comes to FSX has limited value. There is a brake even point when it comes to FSX. FSX only supports DirectX 9c (I know about the demo mode directx 10) is available in the sim, but it has proven to be rather buggy, and is in fact an unfinished product that Microsoft just stuck into the sim. Now just to be clear in the newer games the newer more capable video cards are a definite asset.

In the case of XPlane an i7 CPU which has a larger cache for example will probably be of more benefit, although I have not made a direct comparison. I also would agree that XPlane does benefit with a more advanced video card, because it is not as CPU intensive as FSX is. XPlane can also take advantage of multiple core processors as well, something that FSX cannot do. Besides we were not responding to questions about XPlane, but rather to questions about the best computer specifically for FSX.  In fact XPlane has new features that are superior to the standard anti-aliasing.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:02am

Bernoulli wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 11:14am:

Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:17am:
FSX Deluxe Edition and Acceleration Expansion Pack combined as a single product = FSX Gold (see this: Microsoft - Flight Simulator X: Gold Edition)


Thanks Mark and CoolP...that answers my question. I will purchase FSX Gold.
:D


I have FSX, Prepar3D, and XPlane. Here are my impressions. FSX is an old simulation, and the features you get in newer video cards are lost on FSX. Remember FSX employes DirectX 9c, and as such cannot give you the effects you might want even if your computer is capable of displaying those advanced features. Like i previously stated to you in the case of FSX specifically, the CPU will give you the best performance boost over any other hardware on your computer. Having said that FSX is slicker, and more user friendly then the other two simulators. At this point in time, if you accept FSX with all its warts so to speak, you still have a pretty good simulation as long as you don't bog it down with too many scenery addons. Also any scenery addons you do decide to use, only buy them from reputable companies. In the case of FSX you have to strike a balance between performance, and how it looks.

In the case of Prepar3D, you essentially have FSX code that has been reworked to try and overcome FSX limitations. P3D handles memory better then FSX, and OOM issues are not a problem as in FSX. Also P3D will be introducing DirectX 11 to P3D, which should significantly improve overall visuals, and to a lesser extent performance should improve because of other improvements. On the down side P3d is still 32 bit code like FSX, and at present P3d is not as slick and user friendly as  FSX.

XPlane is not user friendly, is very not very slick, but it IS 64 bit code, which totally removes the memory issues, and limitations. It is the only simulation at present that has the best realistic visuals, since it already employs DirectX 11. The scenery is displayed in 3D as opposed to FSX, and Prepar3D, which is a significant improvement is realism. The flight model is more realistic. The plan is also to actually design the scenery to reflect the actual buildings for example of the country that you are in, as opposed to FSX, and Prepar3D which has the same generic buildings all over the world. On the down side the airports do not have any terminals buildings, but only the airstrips themselves. Although the airstrips are much more realistic then the other sims. these are some of the differences. I hope this helps in your choices.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:10am

CoolP wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 7:44am:

virge wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 1:38am:

I "never" stated that anti-aliasing is a bad thing, but rather in the case of FSX, which is a directX 9 product, and as such can not take advantage of the features in superior cards that support directX 11

I think we need to remind ourselves about the fact that antialiasing itself isn't bound to any API (DirectX 9 vs 10 and 11). So you can and will have the ability to filter regardless of the API in use. To add, my example links showed two other DirectX9 titles, Skyrim and Half-Life2. http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1375581365/9#9

Now there are differences when it comes to forcing the graphics driver to make use of antialiasing. With DX9 based titels, you can force the use on the driver level while the standard for DX10 and above aims to keep the options application based. So the games themselves are supposed to offer a menu. Side note. Later graphic drivers from Nvidia and AMD also allowed to enforce AA on DX10+ titles, at least for some.

In the case of FSX (and P3D by the way), we are somehow lucky to look at mainly DX9 based engines (with the FSX 'DX10 preview' being the exception) as we can make use of tools like Nvidia Inspector to set up the filtering in a very detailed way. By this, you can alter any kind of mode, separately for the full screen level and the one of the transparent textures, the ones being used at the gauges, trees, fences and so on.

Again, the fact that the game is DX9 based does not imply any downside when it comes to AA. And no DX11 graphics chip will suffer from the fact that it now has to filter the old DX9 game. As the cards grew stronger over the years, you now actually have enough raw power to apply even the most demanding filter levels to FSX and other old games. The more one invests, the more antialiasing he will be able to use without losing too much in cloudy FSX skies.

Now that's the big differentiation one has to make when it comes to FSX and big graphic cards. They don't really raise your fps (unless you compare them to very low budget models), but they can keep your fps steady even when using a lot of AA in cloudy scenes. By this, I absolutely agree that, if one doesn't want or like AA, it's of no use to buy such cards. But, as pointed out, I highly doubt that fuzzy gauge needles and shimmering scenes are what simmers like. I repeat myself when pointing at the fact that PC based gaming happens on low-ish dpi screens. Hence the 'need' for antialiasing, as pointed out in previous posts.

So I have to ask for a bit of patience since my FSX rig is at home while I am not.  :-/ If I get there, I can show some example shots on the 707, which has very nice and sharp gauges but receives a lot of improvement when the transparency antialiasing is in use. In the meantime, the example links given before should do the trick. Note. With moving pictures, the gain is even bigger as the shimmering on the whole scene is largely reduced.


I never denied that better hardware is ultimately better for the simulation, but we were trying to balance performance versus a specific budget, concerning a specific simulation, and specifically for FSX. Remember that was the thrust of the questions by the poster.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by virge on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:20am

Markoz wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:07am:
On my 24" Monitor, with a 1920 x 1080 resolution, if the anti-aliasing is OFF, the aircraft in FSX look terrible (jagged edges), but if I have anti-aliasing ON, they look great (smooth edges). So for me, anti-aliasing turned ON is a must!


I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have the same size monitor at the same resolution, and I see some jaggies, but they are in my opinion very minor, and limited to few visuals.  I have all my settings set to the max, and I get excellent frame rates, with highly detailed aircraft such as another company 737NGX, Aoerosoft Airbus ExtendedX, as well as most Captain Sim products, and I fly into very high resolution airport addons with excellent frame rates, and the visuals in my opinion are very good.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 8th, 2013 at 6:45am

virge wrote on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:10am:

I never denied that better hardware is ultimately better for the simulation, but we were trying to balance performance versus a specific budget, concerning a specific simulation, and specifically for FSX. Remember that was the thrust of the questions by the poster.

Indeed.

So, to avoid any further going in circles, let me point out that your tip, to get a more expensive i7 CPU, was explained as having no effect on FSX. While your tip to stay with a cheaper graphic card (since you personally don't see any use in antialiasing) was somehow ok when having in mind those preferences of yours.

Does that sound reasonable?  :)

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 8th, 2013 at 1:43pm
There is also nothing wrong with a better graphics card if FSX is not going to be the only "game" you are going to play.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 8th, 2013 at 5:56pm
Says the FarCry3 player.  :P Very good point, Mark.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 9th, 2013 at 12:23am

CoolP wrote on Aug 8th, 2013 at 5:56pm:
Says the FarCry3 player.  :P Very good point, Mark.

I'm not just into Flight Simming (been playing FC3 for 3 days with only a few small flights in FSX to break the monotony)! :D
Oh. And don't forget GTA IV (hoping for GTA V for PC, but not looking promising yet :(), Sniper: Ghost Warrior 2, Tombraider (2013) and Max Payne 3, just to mention a few that I play. :D

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by CoolP on Aug 9th, 2013 at 2:50pm
Same here. Pretty impressive game lineup to be honest. From now on, I will call you a true gamer instead of 'just' a sim player.  :)  :D

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 10th, 2013 at 10:26pm
Hi Guys:
Any advice on the topic of antivirus software. Do you use it? does it get in the way? Etc.... If it is required for protection, what kind do you guys use? I did not see it in the FS guide from Avsim.
Thanks

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by btscott on Aug 11th, 2013 at 2:12am
Yes, absolutely  --- especially if the pc is used on-line.

A lot of simmers use MSE - Microsoft Security Essentials. It has a very good reputation and it's free. There are many free ones, however. So no need to pay for one.

I also use the free versions of:

* Microsoft Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool

*  Malwarebytes Anti-Malware

I have a few others installed, but these should do the job sufficiently.

I use Smart Close to close all unnecessary programs running in the background while simming or instailling FSX stuff. That would also shut down any anti virus stuff. Usually, however my dedicated flying rig is off-line. Another excellent program for shutting down processes and services is Alacrity PC. It was written by a fellow simmer, Ken Salter, and is also free.


Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Markoz on Aug 11th, 2013 at 2:33am
I use Avast free, you only need to use your name and your email address to register it every year, which I consider to be a reasonable ask, and I think it's a great Anti Virus program. I turn the shields off for 10 minutes (or for 1 hour if I feel 10 minutes isn't going to be long enough) while installing stuff for FSX because anything that accesses the registry is considered a threat. I turn them back on once the installation is done, but if I forget to, they turn themselves back on after the duration that I specified.


Disabling the Avast shields for a specified time.

Title: Re: Thinking about getting this computer
Post by Bernoulli on Aug 17th, 2013 at 12:52am
Hey Guys:
Got the computer. Trying to get all the software set up properly. I will start another thread about How I should set stuff up for FSX and Captain Sim. Thanks for all the comments on this thread and the next one which I will title How best to set up software for FSX and Captain Sim. :)

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