707 Friends,

Finding/capturing the ILS localizer and glideslope with  the help of 707 GPS map is easy but ..............
How did the real 1960/1970 skippers in a GPS free world find there way to the starting point of the ILS localizer ?

Thanks gents,

Jan Koppen
NL

Any of you kids ever hear of a "radio range?"

That was the thing you had to learn to navigate with in the late 50's. The plane I took lessons in was a J-3 for the first few hours followed by the ultra modern Cessna 150. The 150 had a radio called a coffee grinder. You tuned the radio by turning a dial and getting the loudest signal. Then you had to identify the three letter code to make sure you had the correct station. The radio range put out four different legs that were called "the beam." If you left the beam, which was really a buzz of two signals - the A and the N sector, you would get the code for either an A or an N. A lot of time was spent doing radio range orientation. It was very crude navigation, but it was better than DR. Later this range was replaced by the VOR and serious navigation could take place.

Some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_radio_range

So how did we get around and find the ILS localizer in the good old days?

Situational Awareness was very important. Keeping track of where you are is the key to good navigation skills. In the 707 days of the 60's the VOR was one of the tools along with the NDB for keeping track of where you were. The VOR, like the NDB can be used as a bird dog to point to the station using the instrument called the ADF in the lower left part of the instrument panel. The ADF dial has a little knob to select either VOR or NDB bearings. With just a little practice, you will see that this instrument was our GPS of the day. You always had a paper map on your lap or in the map clip. You would use bearings to the station to figure a LOP - line of position. Using the LOM to keep track of your bearing to or from the outer marker was pretty easy. There were places where you would not have radar coverage and the ATC people would expect you to be able to find your own way and keep them informed of your progress. This is how it was done in a large portion of eastern Europe and Africa. There just was not radar in all places.

ATC would clear you to a fix or NDB and clear you for the approach. You were on your own! You would navigate to a VOR or NDB, and depart on a heading or bearing which would allow you to intercept the ILS. Altitude was either assigned by ATC or they might clear you for the approach and you would use the paper map or chart to fly the correct altitude. Now remember these places did not have a lot of traffic so this was a doable thing.

Get your self at your favorite airport that has a ILS and at least one LOM. Take off and fly the traffic pattern using the ADF to show you the bearing to the LOM. Using the VOR/DME makes it very easy to keep track of where you are. Fly the pattern VFR and see how it looks. Then drop the weather and do it on instruments.

That's about the long and the short of it!   No sissy pilots back then!  

Lou

Thanks Lou.

That's really interesting and now you have made me want to go off  and try doing that. But before I do, can you tell me what LOM stands for? It popped in there after LOP (line of position), so I can't quite figure that one out.

Mark

I'm 52 and still feel like a kid too, so I'm sure the saying "Boys will always be boys, it's just that their toys get more expensive" is true. My wife calls me one of the boys because she feels like she has three sons, instead of two sons and a husband.

Mark

I'm so old I don't buy green bananas!  

Mark, we must be married to the same woman!!!  

Who ever dies with the most toys - WINS!  

Lou ............... RESPECT

Have been flying in the Beyrut Lebanon circuit for a whole afternoon.
.............. really not a one man job ! ... but I managed to get her perfectly caputuring the LOC/GS for runway 17 of Beyrut in low visibilty.

thank for your help.
Check out my story about a flight a Beyrut
Have published in Captain707 message TMA repaint.

tks. JK

Here is a quick down and dirty look at the use of the ADF during an approach to a runway with LOM.

This is the ADF control panel on the overhead in the 707. I have tuned the radio to frequency 204 by selecting the proper band of the outer ring of the dial on the right side of the control head - which is 190 to 400. There 2 other selections, 400 to 840 and 840 to 1750. the last band selection is in the normal AM radio band. You can home in on any radio station, or as we used to do, get the latest sports score to pass on to the passengers. You tune with the inner ring using left or right mouse buttons. Notice above the tune knob there is a small meter. This allows you to tune to the strongest signal. On the left of the control head is the knob that turns off the set, or allows selection of ADF, ANT or LOOP. When using the set as an ADF use the ADF position. If you just want to listen to the radio, you would use the ANT position. The last position is LOOP which in conjunction with the loop knob above, allows you to electronically turn the loop or phase of the antenna to point to a station. The switch BFO ( Beat Frequency Oscillator) makes tuning just a bit easier if the signal is poor by adding a tone when on signal. The gain knob inside the mode selector makes it louder.

So as you can see, I have tuned in the LOM of ENOLA which is co-located with the Outer Marker for the RW 13 approach at KMDT.

I am approaching the airport from the southwest. The first screen capture shows the display in the cockpit and on a map of the airport area. For these pictures I froze the plane and just slewed it around - hence the somewhat jagged red path line.



I am flying on a north heading, and just flew over the extended ILS for KMDT which is located off the the lower right along the river. The airport I just flew over is a smaller general aviation airport KCXY. Look at the little black plane and see the position or bearing of the OM at about 8 o-clock. Now look at the instrument indication on the ADF which shows the magnetic bearing to the station.



I have the small left knob on the ADF selected to ADF and the number one needle is pointing to the LOM - bearing about 236 degrees.

Next I will fly downwind, past the station so I can turn around and fly the ILS.



I know the red track line is pretty nasty, but I have flown northwest and started a turn around to an intercept heading for the ILS to RW 13 at KMDT. Here is a look at the cockpit display for the map position above.



I am on a 60 degree intercept heading to the ILS - see the HSI and check the position of the LOC. The inbound course of the RW 13 ILS is 128 degrees, which is set in the course window of the HSI. The ADF is showing a mag bearing to the OM of 169 degrees and my heading is 189 degrees. This tells me I will intercept the LOC well outside the OM.



Now I have intercepted the LOC and I'm just outside the ENOLA LOM.



Observe the LOC and the ADF. I am on the LOC and the bearing to the LOM is about 128 degrees. If there was a strong cross wind there would be a crab angle that would show in both the HSI and the ADF as drift correction.



I have just passed over the marker as you can see on the map above. Below is what the cockpit indications are.



It's a bit hard to see, but the blue OM light is lit, and the ADF needle has swung around to point at the beacon which is now behind us. Now you would use the tail of the needle to fly the bearing. As you fly to the beacon, if you want the bearing to change to the left, you would fly to the right which would cause the needle to move left. After you pass the station, you reverse the process. This is called "dragging the needle."

The ADF is a very useful tool to keep track of where you are as you fly around. It can display either NDB information or VOR information with the flick of a switch. Using the ADF to fly an approach is called a Non Precision Approach whereas the ILS is a Precision approach. This is why the landing minimums are higher for the ADF or VOR approach.

If you have any questions, please ask and I'll try to help you understand how this very useful instrument works.

No sissy glass pilots here!  

Lou

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Yeah, nice explanation there.

Always great to read about some basics in that Lou style since the modern planes only ask you "how would you like your landing, sir?" only.
I always get back to the needle driven things just because I want to take a glimpse on what it used to be like.
But remember, some of those old flagships are still in the air, so the knowledge is more than current and always useful for the understanding, about the things behind all that modern glass too.

Colvale,

You are welcome. It is always fun to see someone learn something new. After you fly this old gal around for a few hours you will enter a time warp and be taken back in time to the land of steam driven instruments.  

In my career, I had the benefit of seeing the old and the new. The glass cockpit is a much more complete piece of information given to the pilot in an easy to understand format. The downside is too much information and too many things that can go wrong.

When it comes to pure fun in flying... Give me my J-5A Cub!



Lou


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boeing247 wrote on Jun 27^th, 2011 at 3:03am:

I'll bet the first license that Lou got (way back when....) covers his beloved J-5 Cub.

Mark

I'm missing a POH for the cub so far.
I guess the first sentence there will be "you ain't going anywhere fast, so please be patient!".

Nice plane, Lou. Makes me jealous of some kind and also reminds me that I really have to get a license soon to scare my girlfriend like I do with Heidi in the sim. 

On the door of my Cub there is a placard that says: GET IN, SIT DOWN & HOLD ON!  

The first plane I ever flew was a J-3 Cub. First FAA license was a student pilot's, then I got my Private pilot license in ASEL (airplane single engine land). The next rating was Instrument, then Commercial followed by Flight Instructor. I built up my time as a flight instructor and doing some charter flying. When I was hired by the airlines, they sent me to their school to get my Flight Engineers rating in turbojets. Big jump from ASEL! First plane I flew as F/O was the 727, which at the time was considered center line thrust so I still did not have a multi-engine rating. It was not until I checked out on the 767 that I got my multi-engine rating and ATP all at the same time.

"If Bruce Scott lived near-by I would get together with him and produce a video to show how this works."

Lou - Your *down and dirty* ADF/LOM description using the map and panel pics is as good as any video. You are VERY good at that! I could have you making videos in a matter of minutes! Making a video is very easy compared to mastering this old time navigation stuff!! I just can't get away from the GPS! Have never had any flight training so the GPS is my crutch. Like I said--- if I lived in your neighborhood I would have you teach me this stuff one on one, but trying to learn it from reading and looking at pictures is tough for a Manhattan soaked brain of 73!  

Bruce

Another great story, Lou!! You have a wonderful wife--- smart too! I'd say that was some birthday! You should write an autobiography!

Well, we would probably have to do some brandy Manhattans so they could catch up on bourbon production!

Is the CS 707 auto pilot as easy to use as the 727? I had no trouble figuring it out---- with your helpful posts that is! I'm hesitant to buy it due to the long haul nature of it. West Coast to Hawaii is about the shortest route for it logically. All the Eastbound transatlantic stuff was mostly overnight. PAA did have one daylight flt from JFK to LHR that I can remember-- PA102 dep 1000. The long haul 707 South American flts were mostly night time also.

Lou, it just this minute occurred to me ---last night I booked, and paid for, a 9 night Mexico Cruise sailing from Long Beach on October 7 and returning Oct 16th. That precludes the AVSIM Conference for me! Hmmm, it was a spur of the moment decision--- induced, more than likely, by that 3rd vodka tonic!  

Bruce

PS - For whatever reason, I can't post pictures here anymore.

Bruce, the 707 autopilot was a pretty good autopilot. Remember, this was a non boosted flight control plane. The autopilot did a great job in flying and was not bad in heading or manual. The NAV selection all the way to the left on the selector hooked you up to the doppler. A full ILS was nothing like the glass planes, but it did a good enough job to get you close to the ground for CAT-I and later CAT-II - that was it!

You should get this plane as it is a great flying plane and you can indeed fly shorter legs as we did in the real plane. KJFK to KPIT, or KCMH were standard. Most of the time it was done in a -131B which was a rocket ship, but the -300B would do just about anything. Oh course, long haul flights are what this plane was made for.

Bummer that you won't be east for the AVSIM deal. 

Colvale, I also did some nav stuff in this forum for the 727. Both planes were pretty much the same with VOR to VOR flying.

Lou

Colvale wrote on Jun 28^th, 2011 at 10:58am:
If you are landing on Runway ILS16 the NAV frequency is 109.70. Or were you landing at Orbx AU YMML RWY ILS27? I don't have RWY9/27 active on my AU YMML v2.

What I do when approaching RWY ILS 16, is to aim to be at 3800' and on a heading of approximately 160^o at BOL NDB. This will put me just below the G/S and very close to lined up on the LOC. So when I reach BOL, my AP Mode Selector Switch is on LOC and I have ALT HOLD on. At or near BOL, I turn the Mode Selector Switch to AUTO GS to capture the Glide Slope down to the runway threshold.

Mark

LOU wrote on Jun 27^th, 2011 at 6:31pm:

I will tell her, but she's afraid of flying, so this may explain why I may run into trouble, even when being the pilot.
But your wifey is a cool girl, that's what she said and that's what I think too.  

Quote:

Make sure to seen green lights there, since amber is the armed status, not leading to any guidance. If it stays amber all the time, maybe the freqs are wrong or you are too far off course.

Quote:

Make sure to seen green lights there, since amber is the armed status, not leading to any guidance. If it stays amber all the time, maybe the freqs are wrong or you are too far off course.


[/quote]
Hi CoolP

Once more,as per your postings in other forums,you are a great source of help.

Yes,the two VOR/LOC V/L neons first illuminate orange,then both go to green,which is when I switched over to the G/S Auto.Now I don't know for sure whether it was because I did not select ALT HLD or what but I was at the correct altitude to intercept the G/S,and I could see myself tracking the ILS but the G/S neon had not turned green and I was not making any further descent down the G/S as I'd have expected.

Exterior View told me immediately that(a)I was still too high,and  (b)I'd be at the threshold pretty soon and would have to abort,at which stage I opted to handland.

Mark,I had flaps 30,gear down,at about 150kias.

I tried another landing at RJAA after a long night flight from YMML.Same scenario,same outcome.

But I will persist,and give it another go+post some screengrabs.

Thanks guys for your inputs.

@CoolP+Mark

Guys,thanks to you two,it gives me a great satisfaction to say, that I managed my very first auto-land into Rwy8L at PHNL from RJAA,after following all of your tips re:C 'n D Start,SIDs+STARs,V/L,G/S,etc,etc.

I have learned a great deal from you two.Thanks again.Now look forward to even more flights as I want to build time with this 'old dame'.

Ooops,I hope that is PC-ok!

Covale said: Yes,the two VOR/LOC V/L neons first illuminate orange,then both go to green,which is when I switched over to the G/S Auto.

If you want to get comfortable flying this plane, stay in the traffic pattern and fly some approaches. You can set the plane up on the approach lets say 15 miles out on an intercept heading at the proper altitude for that part of the flight. Remember, 300' per mile is the normal glideslope.
When you have the plane where you want it, press P to pause and save the flight so you can repeat the approach over and over as you wish.

Go here and download some maps: http://runwayfinder.com/
Go here and download some approach plates: http://www.airnav.com/airports/

Here is a IFR low altitude enroute chart. It has airpotrs, VOR's and airways.



Here is a closer look at the chart. There is a bunch of detail, maybe too much for a low time pilot. I put a red circle around KMDT (Harrisburg, PA)



Here is the approach chart for KMDT RW 13 ILS



If you want to fly a few approaches, this is a pretty easy approach. You can position your plane northwest of the HAR vor and get all set up for a ILS to RW 13. You can set the ENOLA NDB (204) which will give you some extra help in finding your way around. Notice the initial approach altitude is 2,800 feet. If you get all set up and don't rush the approach the 707 will do a very nice job of tracking the ILS. Keep the weather nice and daytime until you get comfortable with the plane. Reduce the fuel load to around 30% so it's not too heavy. Use flaps 50 and set the Vref to the chart under the glare shield. Add 10 knots to the Vref and that will be your full flap approach speed. We called that Bug+10. Bug being the little speed pointer in the airspeed indicator.

Spend a little time looking at the approach chart. There is a ton of information on each chart, so study it before you go fly.

REMEMBER - this is NOT an autoland airplane. You must disconnect the autopilot by 100 feet above the ground or it could get nasty!  

Some where - in the past - I wrote a very detailed approach lesson. I think CS2 put it in the tips section.

Have FUN! Let me know how you are doing.

Lou

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