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 25 CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE (Read 327260 times)
Rick Winkelman
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #285 - Oct 20th, 2012 at 7:55pm
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CoolP,

Thanks for the answer. That makes sence indeed.

But now one more big problem.

If i change to HDG mode to update the INS1 it doesnt update at all.

I follow the manual and have watched the video tutorial about 10 times now.
But the update light does not light up at all. do you know if there is a special setting in the 707 to do because i think it has something to do with the nav1 / nav2 freq active status.

Kindly regards,

Rick Winkelman
  

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CoolP
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #286 - Oct 21st, 2012 at 7:35am
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I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you trying to perform a DME update maybe? These two sentences puzzle me.  Embarrassed Quote:
If i change to HDG mode to update the INS1 it doesnt update at all.

But the update light does not light up at all.

For a DME update, just make sure the proper station is tuned and showing up on the DME display (of the 707). Means that you have a reception. Then perform the steps to start the DME update for the INS.

Here's some more information from this thread.
http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1285100008/156#156

http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1285100008/138#138

  
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Rick Winkelman
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #287 - Oct 22nd, 2012 at 8:37am
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CoolP,

Thanks for your answer, going to try that.
But since we are navigating the 707 on one single INS, is it possible to Update the INS (DME Update) while we are navigating or do we have to couple the ins off first?

Kindly regards and allready thanks for all the help!

Rick Winkelman
  

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CoolP
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #288 - Oct 22nd, 2012 at 9:37am
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Quote:
is it possible to Update the INS (DME Update) while we are navigating or do we have to couple the ins off first?

Good question. They recommend to uncouple the autopilot (with e.g. reverting back to HDG select) for the time the unit starts the DME update. Reason is that the update may cause more or less severe heading corrections which would harm passenger comfort.

Now that seems to be a recommendation for the rw units and also for the case of a huge offset already having developed. In the sim, I never saw huge jumps or something, so you are safe to leave the autopilot in NAV and then start the DME update.

The CDU itself can do both things, deliver the signal to the AP and, at the same time, process the DME update correction. So even a single INS installation is stable enough to perform both tasks at a time.
  
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Rick Winkelman
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #289 - Oct 22nd, 2012 at 10:46am
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CoolP,

Again, Thank you!

Now one more question to ask and i know this is not the right place but okay.

This question is about fuel planning.

I've see a lot of posts where is said you must plan your fuel backwards since it is not possible to plan your fuel the normal way with the performance charts.

This because you need a gross weight for the planning. Only is that not possible to know because the gross weight is included the Fuel weight. and that is the thing you need to plan.

Is there a short description availible on how to plan your fuel?

Kindly regards,

Rick
  

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CoolP
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #290 - Oct 22nd, 2012 at 12:57pm
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I think one could write an Excel sheet for planning with the fuel. There's a document hosted at Avsim (707perf.zip) which lists some cruise and climb values for a given GW. Our CS 707 needs a bit less than charted, but the values should give a nice overview.

Now, on the data we have. Assuming that the CS plane roughly follows the charts.

The rate of fuel burn at cruise. There's a cruise chart which allows for an overview on how many nm you get out of 1000 lbs of fuel. You can also use a second table to define the fuel flow rate per engine. So, for the cruise portion, we are ok.  Smiley

The climb part is also covered, but I think we will see a more or less severe discrepancy there. Either way, I'm ok.  Smiley

The descent stage isn't covered but we may assume that throttling back and pointing the nose down will cause a decreased fuel flow until we come to the point where the approach procedure starts.   Questioning

On the reserve fuel, I'd say it depends. You could add a percentage of the trip fuel or, on short trips, a fixed addition of fuel weight. With the charts and when knowing your cruise FL, you can look up how much fuel the engines need per hour. So if you wanted to add some hours extra, you can get your values.  Questioning


On the problem to plan reversed, just jump in with a ZFW or your liking (after using the ACE) and then add 'just some' fuel to have a GW value to start with. Then plan ahead, with that given GW, and see if you would make it when looking at the fuel charts. If you would have too much fuel left, do it again with a lower GW. The other way around when it turns out that you are running too low on fuel.

To give some examples. You would start with a TOGW of some 210.000 lbs. Lets say 40.000 lbs are fuel. The cruise chart recommends FL390 for your flight, which would cause every 1000lbs of fuel to give you approx 46nm of range. For the climb up to that cruise flight level of 390, you can look up that, at a GW of 210.000 lbs, it would take 8900 lbs and 25 minutes on a standard ISA day.

When leaving out any considerations on extra fuel and the winds, you would therefore climb, use those 8900 lbs of fuel, then be at cruise altitude and have 31.100 lbs left, giving you a range of 1430nm (31.1 x 46) if you wanted to run out of fuel and then glide to an airport.  Cheesy

Now if your trip was only 1000nm, you would have consumed the climb fuel and the part of the cruise portion. Lets say your climb took some 150nm, means 850nm are left for cruising, which would need 850 / 46 = 18.5; 18.500 lbs of fuel. You've started with 40.000 so 12.600 lbs are still there and since you would start your descent sooner than just above the destination, the descent will save some fuel while the approach stuff then consumes a bit more.

If your trip was 2000nm, you would need more fuel of course. So you could start again and add some 20.000 lbs, means you have 60.000. The GW now is 230.000 lbs and the cruise charts recommends FL370 with 1000 lbs of fuel resulting in approx 41nm.

To climb up to FL370 on a standard ISA day, you need 9500 lbs and 25 minutes. Estimate some 150nm for the climb, leaves 1850nm for the cruise, which needs 1850 / 41 = 45.1; 45.100 lbs of fuel. You've loaded 60.000 lbs of fuel, 9500 are gone with the climb and 41.500 are needed for a cruise above the airport, so 5400 lbs are left. That's a bit thin, so do it again with some extra fuel.

Well, if you have wind data in place, you can estimate it's effect on the planning distance. I would just check the winds for a general trend. If you receive headwind, add fuel and run the calcs again. The 707perf docs give you some TAS values to play with, means a 'no wind' planning basis. Tailwind would make me (I'm a sim pilot!) leave the initial fuel as it is, unless my no-wind landing weight would be anywhere close to exceeding structural limits. But that's not the case on the examples given. If you want to land on short runways, that's a different ball game of course.

But, from the charts, landing a 247.000 lbs plane on a wet runway with the airport being at 2.000ft gives me just above 7600ft of landing distance. So any major hub larger airport will be just fine and those 247.000 are your limit for the real plane. And the sim plane brakes way better.  Tongue

To give an example on the winds. Lets cruise at FL370 with standard ISA temps. This gives you 458 KTAS. We have a trip of 1850 ahead, so, with no winds, you are above the airport in slightly over 4 hours (1850 / 458 = 4.04) . If you have a headwind of 70 kts at cruise, you GS will be 388 kts, means the 1850nm are gone in 4 hours and 45 minutes, so you need fuel for roughly one hour extra. Yes, this increases the GW and slightly decreases the nm per 1000 lbs of fuel. So extra fuel means.. extra fuel.  Cheesy

Now I never ran her on those 6 hour or more trips, just on shorter ones. Means that the roughness of those calcs may indeed backfire on you when it comes to either the max landing weight or the danger of running out of fuel. Maybe another 707 fan has set up a Excel sheet or something to help you.

Edited:
Just to be clear, that sort of 'planning' isn't really worth to be called like that. No rw pilot would plan that (rough) way, so just take it as a sim special and a very vague concept of rule of thumb. So only look at it as the guesstimated thing it is.
  
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Rick Winkelman
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #291 - Oct 22nd, 2012 at 8:36pm
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CoolP,

Thanks again for your answer.
I've decided to start creating a fuel planner program based on inputs you (as a user) can give it.

Based on those inputs it will make (i hope) a rough fuel planning form.

Will keep you updated!

Rick
  

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CoolP
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Re: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE
Reply #292 - Oct 23rd, 2012 at 9:11am
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Good idea, Rick. I can send you a template if you like. It's from another plane, but it shows a nice concept. If I had some leisure time and some more data, I think I would start one myself. I will PM you the example file.
  
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RyanJames170
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CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #293 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:35am
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how would one go about adding the CIVA INS or the ISG1 Smiths FMC to the 707?
  
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Markoz
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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #294 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:55am
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RyanJames170 wrote on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 5:35am:
how would one go about adding the CIVA INS or the ISG1 Smiths FMC to the 707?

Almost all you need to know about CIVA-INS and the 707: CIVA INS - THE ONLY THREAD PLEASE. And if you still have problems, feel free to ask questions. Wink

As for the ISG1 Smiths FMC, it has been mentioned several times, but I don't know who has done it, or how they did it. And seeing as I don't have it, I can't help you with it. Sorry.
  

Mark Fletcher



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Panny
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FSX is a pain in the ass.

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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #295 - Nov 22nd, 2012 at 8:34pm
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I have used it, but not in the CS 707. I have on the CLS 747. What do you want specifically?
Pete
  

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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #296 - Nov 23rd, 2012 at 1:34am
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I would love to have the ISG1 Smiths FMC in the 707 so i can fly flight plans

anyone know how to do that?
  
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Markoz
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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #297 - Nov 23rd, 2012 at 5:10am
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RyanJames170 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2012 at 1:34am:
I would love to have the ISG1 Smiths FMC in the 707 so i can fly flight plans

anyone know how to do that?

The 707 can fly GPS flight plans made using the FS Flight Planner, or plans made by Third Party addons that can save them in the FS PLN format (like FS Commander v9.2 which I sometime do).

I haven't done an FS Flight Plan (GPS) flight plan in ages. This is how I think I do it (*I'll check later). You load the flight plan from the FS Flight Planner and by putting the Autopilot Mode Selector knob on NAV Mode (make sure that the Doppler/INS switch is set to Doppler, but the Doppler is turned OFF). The only things you need to do is control the 707's speed using the throttles and calculate your own T/D.

I mostly use either the Doppler Navigation or CIVA-INS Navigation (my preference being the INS).

*I'll correct this if I am wrong. Wink
  

Mark Fletcher



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G_Sproson
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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #298 - Nov 23rd, 2012 at 4:30pm
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Can you actually get the INS into the VC or does it have remain a 2D pop-up?
  
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Markoz
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Re: CIVA INS or ISG1 FMC??
Reply #299 - Nov 23rd, 2012 at 4:44pm
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Captain Sim asked the developers who made CIVA-INS if it would be okay to modify the code so it could work in the VC. They never got a response. Or something like that.
  

Mark Fletcher



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