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 10 PDCS and EPR (Read 27582 times)
ftwd
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PDCS and EPR
Aug 2nd, 2013 at 7:35am
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Hi all,
Am interested in buying the 737 but past experience (727 & 707) has shown that the EPR numbers weren't accurate. How accurate is the 737 EPR's when using the PDCS?

Cheers
  

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CXA546
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #1 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 1:00pm
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It doesn't work. The PDCS calculates numbers from left field. The PDCS will also crash your sim. Wait for the patch.
  

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CoolP
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #2 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:26pm
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The PDCS might suffer from at least two problems. First, the engine and flight model may not represent the real plane. While this is true for most sim renditions, the margin between real and sim is the important one. If you look into the forums, you will sense that the current build offers a very powerful plane, so you might receive a more or less wrong performance when trying to fly real world EPR values.

The PDCS itself does compute values (can't say how much offset they have), but those would then get merged with the mentioned engine and flight model. Adding to that, the current PDCS gauge seems like a potential source of CTDs, as CXA mentioned. We couldn't really narrow it down to a certain function though, unfortunately.

The solution in regard to matching rw performance could be to develop a performance table which takes all those sim factors into account and then gives you some EPR values (for example, via patched gauges) to follow. The better solution would be to harmonize the performance elements which, for some users, would reduce the fun as we would surely receive a less powerful plane.

I would opt for the latter, but I'm not sure if all users would agree and, therefore, if the extra work would be justified. If you've already experienced the 727 and 707, you may agree that the flair and atmosphere are great but the 'close to rw' performance sometimes only matches ballpark figures.
  
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ftwd
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #3 - Aug 3rd, 2013 at 12:05pm
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Thanks guys,
Might have to give it some more thought. I have "the competitors" product, but am not too happy with the visuals, handling and repaints. I have read up on the user updated flight dynamics that a lot of people are recommending for the CS 737. Seeing that the EPR's are suffering from problems in the FSX modelling, are the N1's close? How do people here set their T/O and Climb throttle settings?

Thanks again for your replies,

Cheers Nathan.
  

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CoolP
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #4 - Aug 3rd, 2013 at 5:37pm
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Well you can get performance related data from Paul's great v one mod. I wouldn't recommend using the CS 737 without it as it's really a treat. http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1356995479

If you combine it with the other available mods for the FDE (that's from Bud http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1339198966) and the engine behaviour from Dutch http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1354077822/0), you should be ok. Well, I am so far. Yes, I do realize that we're talking about three mods being 'needed.'  Undecided

As for the PDCS and other problems, I'm awaiting a service pack like everyone else.  Smiley
  
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BrianG
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2013 at 2:38am
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Does the combination of these three mods bring the level of realism ( in those areas) for the 737 up to the same level that the Micheal2 mod did for the 727? For those who have both of these models with these mod's installed, I'd love to hear from you. The CS 727 hit so many real world 727 tables once the Micheal2 mod was installed.
Would like this plane but at this point I'm just not looking for visual entertainment with little substance behind it. Willing to do the installs if the results are reasonably close to real world data.
And what "other" problems are we talking about here.
Thanks so much.

Brian
  
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CoolP
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #6 - Aug 16th, 2013 at 8:43pm
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I'll try to address some of your questions. Now the ones related to the flight model are subjective as I didn't really check the numbers with the rw docs. But, I think Paul did and that's the guy who's done the mentioned v one mod, giving you v-speeds, callouts and things.

First of all, I'd stress that the fixes regarding the overpowered character of the plane are mandatory from my viewpoint. Otherwise, you receive pretty much of a rocket, which the 737 somehow is but not that much.  Grin So you are getting closer to rw values for sure when using Bud's FDE mod. I also think his thread describes that he at least roughly checked the values which arise from the edited FDE of his.

I agree with you that the Michael2 mod was great for the 727. But, in my eyes, the default 727 rendition form CS already was closer to the real plane than the default 737 is. Again, subjective impression of mine.

As for the other problems mentioned, we've created a list some time ago. It's still current.  Sad http://captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1346764500/0
  
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BrianG
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #7 - Aug 16th, 2013 at 10:16pm
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Thanks CoolP for your assessment. The unresolved problem list among  other "lists" I've read (see "why can't you fix this plane")  leads to fundamental problems with this AC, and leads me to pass on this one. Strange that  CS waits for customers to develop fixes rather than do it themselves. There does seem to be a pattern here. If Bud and Paul were able to ascertain more relevant FDE, why can't CS, the developer do it.  Maybe they're not capable?  Perhaps their target market are those who don't care about such things? CS product positioning would suggest otherwise. I didn't spend any money here so I'm not upset, rather, merely perplexed by it.

I think I'm looking for a different business and product philosophy.

Anyway, your insight is much appreciated and valued.

Thanks again.

BG
  
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CXA546
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #8 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 2:25pm
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BrianG wrote on Aug 16th, 2013 at 10:16pm:
Thanks CoolP for your assessment. The unresolved problem list among  other "lists" I've read (see "why can't you fix this plane")  leads to fundamental problems with this AC, and leads me to pass on this one. Strange that  CS waits for customers to develop fixes rather than do it themselves. There does seem to be a pattern here. If Bud and Paul were able to ascertain more relevant FDE, why can't CS, the developer do it.  Maybe they're not capable?  Perhaps their target market are those who don't care about such things? CS product positioning would suggest otherwise. I didn't spend any money here so I'm not upset, rather merely perplexed by it.

I think I'm looking for a different business and product philosophy.

Anyway, your insight is much appreciated and valued.

Thanks again.

BG


Well said.

No more business from me until the existing products are finished properly.
  

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Tony Rubak
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #9 - Sep 24th, 2013 at 2:11pm
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After flying this plane for a few days and poking at the PDCS (which only crashes the game if you are mean to it and press the buttons far too many times, just be gentle with it and it's pretty well-behaved) I think the numbers it generates for EPR are "accurate."

If you use the FDE mod found on the forums here the numbers are pretty spot on for cruise (once level at cruise alt) and take-off (note that if you do reduced power takeoff for 80+ F you're looking at about a 1 mile takeoff roll Smiley ), but they're incorrect for climb and cruise when not at cruising altitude.

The problem with climb and cruise before you're in level flight are the fact that the FL and TEMP pages don't work correctly.

From what I can see, what the FL submode should do (note that this is conjecture having never actually operated one of these units) is automatically determine the optimum FL for the selected "speed" (ECON or LRC) based on gross weight which will then feed into the CRUISE page so that when you select CRUISE ECON you get the correct EPR for cruise at that altitude. FL MAN should let you set a FL for CRUISE MAN which would then calculate the correct settings for cruise at your selected FL.

The TEMP submode should automatically calculate the TAT (and TAS, and all that other stuff, but those aren't really all that relevant for what we want) which will then feed into the CLIMB page and thus give us the correct derated climb EPR based on TAT. You'll note that the CLIMB page always gives 261/.72 and 2.18 EPR for climb power, the speeds are probably pretty decent in any conditions, but the EPR is too high until the TAT drops below about -10C.

Again, these are my conjectures based on what it seems like this unit should do, not any actual experience having used one of these.
  
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CoolP
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #10 - Sep 27th, 2013 at 1:58pm
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Impressive testing, Tony. And welcome to the forums.  Smiley I must admit that I didn't bother much with the numbers since experiencing the CTDs due to the gauge itself. Kind of like any key press could end the flight, so that kept me away from doing more than just turning that mode knob.  Embarrassed

The shame is that this gauge actually is a great detail and, if done correctly, would help operating the 737 a lot. Imagine it driving the bugs correctly, calculating the values beforehand and allowing a sneak peak on the flight progress.

I saw the competition adding a FMC for the lateral navigation (maybe even vertical) but leaving the PDCS out. So that's where the CS could shine but currently doesn't. Well, one would have to add all the user mods on the current FDE of course since the default basis is off the charts, literally.
  
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Markoz
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #11 - Sep 28th, 2013 at 2:55am
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Although I tend not to use the PDCS for the same reason as CoolP, I have found that if I slowly and deliberately press the buttons, it can be used without an FSX CTD. The problem is that if you forget and press about three buttons in quick succession, the CTD is likely to occur.

It would be nice if... (1) The problem was fixed. And (2) the PDCS actually moved the EPR bugs to the correct setting for the flight mode.
  

Mark Fletcher



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CoolP
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Re: PDCS and EPR
Reply #12 - Sep 30th, 2013 at 4:59pm
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Here's some rare footage on what happens to the pilots if they press the PDCS buttons too fast. Proceed with caution.  Shocked
  
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