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 25 ILS and G/S Help (Read 14225 times)
boeing247
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ILS and G/S Help
Apr 9th, 2011 at 6:34pm
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I'm having trouble working the ILS. I tuned the frequency and the ILS runway heading in the ILS panel, and turned on the APP in the autopilot. I was flying at what I assumed was the correct heading and altitude for intercepting the LOC and G/S, but the airplane failed to intercept either. Of course, the ATC never specifically told me that those were the intercepts, but they told me to fly a heading of 095 and an altitude of 2000 feet (the runway was at 185°, if that helps). What was I doing wrong?
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #1 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 7:17pm
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Boeing247,

90 degree intercept is not happening!
Too big a turn.
Most intercepts by ATC would be between 45 and 30 degrees, with 30 being a lot nicer.
Even though you put the plane on autopilot you still have to FLY THE PLANE.
You might have to use heading select to get the aircraft to turn toward the LOC if the auto stuff does not do it for you.
In the real plane the little black button (Z) on the yoke is your friend - use it if the plane does not do what you want then when you are under control, hook it up again and see what it wants to do. As an instructor in these planes I would never let a student sit there pushing autopilot buttons without a hand on the yoke and thumb on the disconnect button.
Try it again with a 30 degree intercept and be on speed with flaps 5 degrees.

Lou

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/plane/boeing/b767/diagrams/B767-ILS_Approa...
  

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boeing247
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #2 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 7:23pm
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Wow, that is 90 degrees, isn't it? I apparently wasn't paying attention when I typed that.  Wink Now that I think about it, it may have been more like a heading of 125, but that still would be too much. This may be a dumb question, but I'm new to using ILS (I've just recently decided to actually learn how to realistically fly jetliners and use the various systems), so do you have to intercept the LOC before the plane will intercept the glideslope?
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #3 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 9:08pm
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boeing 247,  I'm new to using ILS (I've just recently decided to actually learn how to realistically fly jetliners and use the various systems), so do you have to intercept the LOC before the plane will intercept the glideslope?

That depends on the plane. The old gals - 707, 727 would not do a G/S capture from above (except MAN G/S) or until the Loc was captured in AUTO G/S. It's been a while since I flew the 767, but I think it will capture either one in APP. One of the ways of doing an ILS in the FMC planes is to let it fly the magenta line for the line-up to the LOC. Check the raw data and if it looks good, push the APP button.

The key is to give it a chance to be successful by not rushing the approach. Get the plane slowed down with proper flap setting and a nice capture angle of around 30 degrees, ten miles out. That should give the autopilot time to do its thing.

Read over the tips and tricks area of the KB. I did a play by play for the 727 doing an ILS. Most of the stuff applies to the glass planes just the weights and speeds are a bit different.

Lou
  

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boeing247
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #4 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 11:15pm
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Thanks! I think there's just one last thing: how do you get the ILS feathers to appear on the HSI? I watched a video for a different company's 767 (so I don't know if you can do this on Captain Sim's) where the HSI displayed a dashed white line which represented the ILS feather.
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #5 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 12:42am
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boeing247 asked:  I think there's just one last thing: how do you get the ILS feathers to appear on the HSI? I watched a video for a different company's 767 (so I don't know if you can do this on Captain Sim's) where the HSI displayed a dashed white line which represented the ILS feather.

The term ILS feather refers to the
drawing of the LOC and G/S on an approach plate.




The dashed white line is the extended center line of the runway selected for the approach.



As you fly your trip on the FMC you stay on the Magenta line - your flight plan.
You can extend the final course if you are being vectored or you can just fly
to the canned places on the approach.

Above, for example, you can see the HAR VOR on both the approach plate and on the FMC.
You could be directed to fly direct to the HAR VOR,
maintain 2,800 feet, cleared for the approach RW 13.
Maintain 2,800 until established on the LOC.


Lou
  

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boeing247
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #6 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 5:46am
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So do I use the FMC to get the runway center line to appear? How do I program ILS information into it? In another aircraft I have, the manual says to use the Radar nav section, though I wouldn't know things like frequency (which it said to put it) because ATC doesn't tell me which runway to use until I'm descending.

Anyways, I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but I've followed the instructions of online videos, and my LOC hold isn't working. The LOC magenta icon moves to the right and past the center all the way to the right end, and the airplane never turns. The G/S just plain doesn't move.

Thanks again for putting up with my questions and for providing detailed answers.  Wink
  

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boeing247
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #7 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 5:58am
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I just read the FMC tutorial on the 757, and I think I'm pressing LOC hold at the wrong time. When should I press it? Just before the magenta icon hits the centerline?
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #8 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 3:09pm
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boeing247 - it sounds like you are not putting all the information in the FMC.

When you select ARR/DEPT you will be able to choose the arrival runway and all the runway information for that runway will be programed including the STAR, if you select one and the proper transition.

If you are in LNAV the plane will follow the magenta line and take you through the arrival. Once on the magenta course for the runway you can check the raw data in the HSI to see how the LOC & G/S are doing. If the final is a long one, delay pushing APP until cleared for the approach or until you are a few miles outside the marker or final fix. This should give you a more stable transition from LNAV to the ILS. Remember to be on speed for where you are on the approach. As you fly inbound to the final fix - flaps 15 / 160k, then as you see the G/S come alive - gear down, flaps 20. Glide slope one dot to go, landing flaps and adjust power to keep bug+5k on final.

Remember you have to put correct information into the FMC or the numbers will be  Cheesy

Garbage in, garbage out!

Here, do some reading....http://loft2047.serverloft.com/B757_200/flight_management_navigation/fms_descrip...

  

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boeing247
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #9 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 3:24pm
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Yeah, I knew I wasn't putting all the information into the FMC, but now that I've read the FMC tutorial by aussie in its entirety, I think I know what to put it.

So if you put in the Arr/Dept runways, then ATC will direct you to those runways and it will appear in your flight plan?

And by the way, you do you figure out the Center of Gravity?
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #10 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 3:44pm
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. Here, do some reading....http://loft2047.serverloft.com/B757_200/flight_management_navigation/fms_descrip...

[/quote]

Thats a great link Lou. Thanks for sharing.

Danny
  
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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #11 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 5:59pm
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Yeah, I knew I wasn't putting all the information into the FMC, but now that I've read the FMC tutorial by aussie in its entirety, I think I know what to put it.
I had to do that tutorial flight quite a number of times before I got it sorted out in my head. Be patient and keep at it. Once you get it figured out, it's really easy.

So if you put in the Arr/Dept runways, then ATC will direct you to those runways and it will appear in your flight plan?
Not necessarily. The ATC will, IF the arrival runway you have selected is the one in use when you get there. I hate using the ATC when I'm using the FMC controlled aircraft because the ATC does NOT know which runway I have selected and with ATIS only having a range of about 60nm, it makes it difficult to adjust your arrival selection and can put a lot of pressure on you to get it done as quickly as possible. At least the ATC will get descending in time, even if you FMC does not have a Top of Descent showing. The ATC in FSX does not use SIDs, STARs or TRANs and it's sense of guidance if laughable.

And by the way, you do you figure out the Center of Gravity?
With great difficulty! I use a figure of about 30-31 and it works well. I really don't know the correct formula, but aussie has a neat way of doing it in his tutorial, even if it isn't the correct way to do it.

Mark
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #12 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 6:03pm
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Thanks for the reply!  Smiley So ATC won't necessarily vector you to your chosen runway, but when you select a runway in the FMC, will it change your flight plan to send you to that runway?

Oh, and does that little circle icon on the picture of the plane in the Fuel and Payload window represent where your CG is?
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #13 - Apr 10th, 2011 at 6:11pm
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but when you select a runway in the FMC, will it change your flight plan to send you to that runway?
If you mean the FMC. Yes it will. I often do the flight plan in the FMC and copy it to RTE 2 (before entering DEP, SID, ARR and STAR). That way, I can add the new information into RTE 2, activate it (but you have to make sure it goes to your next waypoint and doesn't try to return to the departure airport), fly the new STAR and TRANS.

Oh, and does that little circle icon on the picture of the plane in the Fuel and Payload window represent where your CG is?
Yes it does.

Mark
  

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Re: ILS and G/S Help
Reply #14 - Apr 11th, 2011 at 5:14am
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Okay... I think I understand now...

So I load my FS flight plan as Rte 1, then manually input a similar flight plan for Rte 2, but I program in the arrival and departure runways (the SIDs and STARs and such). Then I can activate Rte 2 and it will take me right in for an ILS landing, right?

Thanks,
boeing247

Oh, LOU, is there anywhere online I could find more of those runway charts? Those could be pretty helpful to have out by my computer so I don't have to keep checking the map.  Smiley
  

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