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 10 Yet anothe Fuel thread. (Read 13566 times)
crashbar
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Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Mar 12th, 2011 at 3:02am
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I give up!  The fuel system implementation has got me spending more time managing fuel than having a relaxing long flight and not having to worry about my engine going out.  Even with the B-52 which I've made the same threads on, I can't seem to ever be able to Fuel Dump down to what I need without the engine's going out.  I've tried everything that people have recommended but same thing happens.  I'm not an idiot but I'm certainly not a real pilot and although I enjoy realism to a certain extent, this problem has just got me spending too much time trying to figure out.  Also, is there even a manual for this plane?  I never received one with my download for main or VC-137 expansion?  This is not s smash CS thread, but I'm certainly frustrated.
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #1 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 5:43am
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Fuel dump is a system seldom used, as the fuel dispursed can cause poisoning of the land, fire hazards and other things. You should calculate your fuel needed with an alternate, and fuel dump should be reserved for emergencies.
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #2 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 6:55am
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The manuals are free downloads. Go to the aircraft's page and click "Manuals" at the bottom.
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #3 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 12:38pm
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There are a few things to remember with the fuel and the 707. To follow what I mean, open the ‘707 Captain’ FLIGHT MANUAL Part II – Aircraft and Systems (cs707_manual2.pdf) and go to page 88.

They are:
1. Make sure that all the Manifold Valve Switches (42-45) and Transfer Valve Switches (46,47) are OPEN/ON!
2. Keep a close eye on the fuel tanks and when they are almost empty (about 100 - 1000 pounds of fuel remaining), turn the Fuel Boost Pump Switch (16,17,18,19,24,25,26,27,28,29) for that fuel tank OFF. The exception to this is the Fuel Quantity Gauge for the Reserve Tanks (Left & Right Tip tanks) as they do not have a Fuel Boost Pump Switch.

By doing that, you should not have any problems.

Mark
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #4 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 10:57pm
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That's exactly what I did Mark, I realize by default the Transfer switches are horizontal instead of vertical.  So the first thing I always do is switch all of them vertical(open) and then confirm that all valve switches are "on" which they are by default for me.  The center tank will empty first..no problems here I just turn the pumps off and everything is fine.  Then the outer tanks go down, but when I turn the pumps off right before they go empty, they still drain down and the engine die's.  Like I said not a novice here by any means, been flying FSX since it was released.  However like I said, I'm not a real pilot and and for me personally this plane and the so called (fun line of planes) B-52 are more about managing the fuel systems then just enjoying a "game".  I just want to be able to takeoff with the fuel I want, and be able to fuel dump down to whatever without the engines going out.  As far as "calculating" fuel before flight, most of the time I spend is free flight or training missions and have no idea how long I'll be up in the air.  So setting a certain fuel limit won't do much for me.  Anyways like I said this is not a bash thread, but for me these planes are not enjoyable.  The CS C-130 works fine for me as I can add or fuel dump as I need, but 707 and B-52 are just too time consuming and complicated.  The V R S Superbug was actually easier to learn than these 2.  I actually made a thread on their forums about the fuel weights and %'s with different fuel tanks, but I can't even keep these to birds up in the air.  Except for of the few of you who seem to not mind the complicated system, it just frustrates me.  Thanks for all your help though Mark even with the B-52 fuel.  I'm glad at least a few people understand it all.
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 11:41pm
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First of all, we have to differentiate the questions and complains a bit. The B-52 is the Fun line thing, but these are the 707 forums. If one would constantly struggle with the Fuel on the B-52, I would recommend going with "unlimited fuel", set up in the FSX realism dialog.

When we're talking about the 707, we are talking about the detailed systems there, since this is not a "Fun" product, therefore some reading of the manuals and understanding can be assumed to have taken place. Since these are the forums, questions are always welcome and you'll find people like Mark explaining them as good and as often as they can. Thumbsup there.

The 707 runs seven tanks, Center, Left/Right Main (=2&3), Left/Right (=1&4) and Left/Right Tip (="Reserve"). Fill them up with the outer tanks first and empty them from the inner ones then, regarding the special role of the "Reserve" ones.



A more detailed description is included in the manuals, giving you the switch and valve setting.



So if you look up your current fuel distribution in the "IF" column, you will see how to set up those valves and switches and also, you can read what to do next when some fuel has been used.
The very last "IF" item is Main tanks 2&3 equal tanks 1&4 + their Reserve, so this will be the last point were you can (and should) set up the fuel distribution on the plane.
Running all four engines at the same setting, this will give you all four tanks (1,2,3,4) going to "0" at the very same time. I don't know if the real plane flew like this, but I can tell that the manuals for the CS state it and it works just fine there.
If you look in that diagram, your flight should have ended before this "0" point. Otherwise, it will be ended then.  Grin

Fuel dumping is more or less an emergency procedure but, as this is a sim, you can simulate it every time you want to of course. This thing also requires some management and it will mainly be the same as if you would burn the fuel at a very fast rate.
Only Mark drops his fuel all at once.  Grin (still laughing, Mate, don't get me wrong though. By the way, isn't their a Lake named after you then?)

Since this Boeing only can crossfeed and not crosstransfer, the only thing to prevent you from running dry is to set the valves in the right way. But, as you see, all four tanks are supposed to run down at the same rate on the later part of the flight, so they all "feed" your engines and they all should have the same amount of fuel when enabled this way of feeding.


Your description doesn't reflect this setup (which comes from the manuals). So you may want to improve the setup there to eventually enjoy the 707.  Smiley
Quote:
The center tank will empty first..no problems here I just turn the pumps off and everything is fine.  Then the outer tanks go down, but when I turn the pumps off right before they go empty, they still drain down and the engine die's.

So, currently, you are missing the step when Main tanks 2&3 equal tanks 1&4 + their Reserve. Look it up in the diagram and fly safe(r).
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #6 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 1:47am
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Wow I appreciate this explanation.  I think I have figured out the problem here lol..it's me!  Like I said I'm not a real pilot but I really do enjoy learning complicated systems and figuring them out.  In saying that,  this plane for me is to complicated and fuel management intense.  It obviously works fine I just personally have a hard time with it.  This product is awesome and I'm not bashing it at all, I think this is just a plane that is not suited for my style.  To be honest I didn't realize that a planes fuel system could be so exactly duplicated, bravo.  As far as the B-52 I'll keep that in the B-52 threads(was just saying that I'm having the same problems).  So anyways there you go, do you like realistic fuel systems or not. Does it take away from the game's fun experience or add to it.  I guess it comes down to understanding what you are buying before you buy it.  
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #7 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 3:21am
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I don't recommend fuel dumping. It always dumps fuel from one tank before another, which can leave your aircraft way off balance. Fuel is dumped this way:

1st - Left Tip - Reserve (2941.3 pounds)
2nd - Right Tip - Reserve (2941.3 pounds)
3rd - Left Aux - No 1 Tank (15564.1 pounds)
4th - Right Aux - No 4 Tank (15564.1 pounds)
5th - Left - No 2 Tank (27262.3 pounds)
6th - Right - No 3 Tank (27262.3 pounds)
7th - Center - Center Tank (68293.1 pounds)

You can imagine that once you have dumped the fuel in the Left Tank, the balance will be out by 27262.3 pounds (if they both had 100% of fuel) and it will lean to the right. I wish you could control the fuel dumping a bit better than that.

@crashbar - If I follow the instructions, which I gave you in my previous reply, all my engines continue to run.
I just finished doing a test and I deliberately ran out of fuel (I was on the ground at the time). I had the Center, Left and Right fuel tank pumps switched OFF and fuel was still being fed to all the engines, except for the Center fuel tank, which remained the same UNTIL all the fuel from ALL the other tanks had been consumed. I don't recall the fuel tanks/pumps behaving this way in v1.2.

Mark
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #8 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 4:27am
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Problem is Mark when I go to the "Fuel and Payload" mid-flight to decrease fuel for landing it causes all the planes functions to turn off. Radar, auto-pilot, lights ect.
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #9 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 5:23am
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You are right on the fuel dumping, Mark, only one side is fully drained, regardless of the settings on the fuel dump panel.
A thing to fix, huh?
I've put it on the list.  Undecided

Crashbar, I've mixed up the numbers of the tanks in this line. See the correct ones here and also above (I've edited the post).
The 707 runs seven tanks, Center, Left/Right Main (=2&3), Left/Right (=1&4) and Left/Right Tip (="Reserve").
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 7:54am
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crashbar wrote on Mar 13th, 2011 at 4:27am:
Problem is Mark when I go to the "Fuel and Payload" mid-flight to decrease fuel for landing it causes all the planes functions to turn off. Radar, auto-pilot, lights ect.  
I noticed that too. It's another change in v1.3 that differs from v1.2. I make all my changes to the fuel before I start the engines. I won't make any changes at all. I think if you press the OK button it will turn things off, so I use the Cancel button (or ESC key) until I'm out of there.

CoolP wrote on Mar 13th, 2011 at 5:23am:
You are right on the fuel dumping, Mark, only one side is fully drained, regardless of the settings on the fuel dump panel.
A thing to fix, huh?
I've put it on the list.  Undecided
I'm sure I noticed this on other Captain Sim aircraft, like the C-130 (I need to do a test). I would like to see fuel dumped evenly, like the Left and Right tanks at the same time, so that the aircraft balance remains.

Mark
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 3:54pm
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I would like to see fuel dumped evenly, like the Left and Right tanks at the same time, so that the aircraft balance remains.
Absolutely, Mark. I'm with you there and I've added the item to the list.

While I understand your need for a working fuel dump procedure, I wonder why somebody would use the "manual" addition or reduction of the aircraft's fuel via the FSX menus inflight on a regular basis.
Of course, the fuel should be set before engine start and it should fit your route, some holding and those three go-arounds I always need.  Undecided
Isn't that fuel planning (roughly will do!) a part of the fun when using a detailed aircraft?

The documents help you guys and, if not, the fuel flow gauges will do since you gain some experience about the actual fuel burn rate there. The 707 even records the fuel used for each engine, so you can do your normal roughly planned flight and see what was used and how close to "dry" you were.
Am I the only one wondering?  Embarrassed
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 4:36pm
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While I understand your need for a working fuel dump procedure, I wonder why somebody would use the "manual" addition or reduction of the aircraft's fuel via the FSX menus inflight on a regular basis.
I plan my fuel usage according to the plan I'm flying. I aim for around an extra 60 - 90 minutes of fuel. If I encounter some strong head winds I don't need to worry too much about whether I have enough fuel.

On one trip to Honolulu from Seattle, using ASE for real weather, I encounter head winds from between 55 and 95 knots nearly all the way. I still had quite a lot of fuel left at the end of the flight. In that particular flight I overestimated the fuel I needed by quite a lot. I did not know of the head winds I would encounter in advance either.

Mark
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 9:02pm
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Sounds good, Mark. If I were a passenger in the sim, I'd go for one of your flights (at least the ones where you don't dump fuel).  Cheesy

But, maybe we all agree that a fuel planning app built into the ACE would be neat. Does anyone support this idea?  Cool
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #14 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 6:01pm
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CoolP's post above with the fuel use procedure is something you 707 pilots should print out
and keep on your desk area so you can keep the plane in balance.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4179/fuelmanagement.jpg

This fuel use procedure is to keep the CG in limits as fuel is burned.

Lou
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #15 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 9:14pm
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CoolIP you do realize this is just a game and right?  So if I fuel dump you do realize that fuel wont actually dump on people's head right?  Cool we have that straight.  Mark you ask why I "would use the "manual" addition or reduction of the aircraft's fuel via the FSX menus in-flight on a regular basis".  Mark, have you ever gone out in a military plane and lets say.....did a 12 hour patrol flight over Afhganistan?  Mabie you dropped all your bombs and your headed home and your a little fuel heavy and your add-on plane doesn't have a in vc fuel-dump feature.  Guess what, that's when I use it.  I don't ALWAYS use it but sometimes when needed I do.  Look, what we are talking about here is simple, being able to takeoff or land with the fuel amount you select without the engines dying or all of your planes avionics turning off.  Either by using fuel-dump or by figureing out exactly how much fuel will be needed which I admit I'm not good at.  So this plane and the B-52 are either fly them witht the complicated(although realistic) fuel systems or switch on "unlimeted fuel" option(please you must be joking lol).  There is no in between.  I mean isn't there 3-4 other pilot's with different jobs that help manage things like fuel.  I mean for example:  I'm doing a bombing run in the B-52 after a 3-4 hour flight and as I desend to 5,000ft. and level out, bomb bay doors open, drop bombs lift up and turn and OH CRAP!!, I forgot to turn off the Fuel Valve for tank 3 and now I'm a falling brick. All I'm asking is to at least give these planes an option to be more fuel forgiving like the C-130 instead of making me do the job of 3-4.  I want to fly, not be a fuel management officer.
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #16 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:23pm
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crashbar, from your last post, I must admit that I'm having problems catching your attitude and you, obviously, couldn't catch mine (including the humor).
That's not a big problem though, but I really suggest to post B-52 "problems" in the corresponding section of the forums, take the C-130 ones to the right place too. Thanks.  Smiley

Yes, the engine failure when using the sim menus to "refuel" inflight can be odd, no doubt there. But this isn't the way the thing is supposed to be used, so lets concentrate on a working dump function (the current one proved to be buggy, as you saw, so it went on the bug list) and leave out all the more or less "interesting" explanations why it is so logical to menu-refuel when actually flying.
Nice stories about bombing runs though.

The game you are talking about is actually a simulator, so the arcade style might lack a bit of depth while the simulation therefore seems better, even on the "Fun" products. It stills stays a game of course.
Don't worry, I don't call my girlfriend flight attendant or have installed seatbelts on my chair, but I'm aware that some things got modelled by e. g. Captain Sim, so one should be aware of using them in the intended way. Remember? Simulator. People actually pay for the things to be somehow close to real (in the limitations of a PC sim).

Otherwise, that unlimited fuel option still stays a tip and gives you some very long bombing runs while filling your plane with only some fuel (before engine start!), which does actually get consumed, but won't influence your running engines. So dry tanks don't happen anymore.
Isn't that a neat thing on a sim?  Wink

So it is completely up to you, to decide about whether to be angry about the fuel management and the sim aspect of the planes, or to realize that either the manuals and some planning (or that mentioned FSX option) are the only two things to help you out of this. Rants of some kind usually don't work out well or constructive.

I think that CS will surely look into the fuel dump operation since this is an aspect a simulated bird should offer in the right way, no question. I also think that a fix for that fuel menu isn't a big deal for them, so maybe this "bug" gets addressed too.
But hey, reading some (included) docs in the meantime can't be a bad idea, don't you think?
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #17 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:32pm
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CoolP,

Fuel dumping in the real world was not without risk. It was an emergency procedure.
There is another way to get rid of some fuel it you're too heavy for landing.
We would deploy the spoilers and/or even drop the gear to increase fuel burn.  Cool

Lou
  

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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #18 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:35pm
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I know and since they've dropped the certification need for any fuel dump devices on smaller airliners (better: the ones that fit into the FAA requirements for not installing such devices), those "high fuel burn flights" can take really long.
JetBlue Airways Flight 292 can tell a story about this.
They also can tell how to land with the nosegear being "crossed". From my humble point of knowledge, a nice landing indeed.
Wikepedia on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_Airways_Flight_292
Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HyBjwI7aps

Maybe you are surprised, but the wrong thinking, that airliners drop their fuel before every landing, is very wide spread among not so aviation related or interested people.
If I would ask my circle of friends, I would surely find quite a few stating this.

So, always prepar your flights (this could mean to clean the windows, like this Captain! does http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bry793viWig) and make sure to only eat up runways, not Baggage Carts like this 747 did (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85nMntRzvk).  Grin

Seems like the Captain gets rid of that rain repellent you once spoke of, Lou. But I would really like to know the story behind this "object" in the 747's engines there.
Looks like big fun for all people involved.
What? Off topic? Ok, you've got me there.  Tongue
  
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Re: Yet anothe Fuel thread.
Reply #19 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 9:20pm
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CoolP, I used to clean my own windows too. No big deal!
Could not clean the 747 window.  Tongue

As for the baggage bin, I saw just this thing happen at KMIA. We were taxing out for takeoff and there was a DC-10 cargo plane off to our left in the cargo area taxing in to park. I guess he gave it a bit too much power as he neared the parking spot, or maybe the bins were too close. In any event he sucked the tarp off the bag cart into the #1 engine. The whole plane jumped as the engine stopped right now.

Are we not on topic?  Grin  Fuel is still involved in some way.
  

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fuel: how to manage it
Reply #20 - Aug 16th, 2011 at 8:02pm
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hallo.
fuel it's really a mess!!!
where can i read how to fill propely tanks? i'm always go out of fuel, and there's no way to close empy tanks.....so the plane sinks..... Sad
I only can fly with  fully loaded tanks.....but it's not so realistic.
  

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Re: fuel: how to manage it
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2011 at 9:02pm
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lucatrader,

Read the manual! Page 36 of the ops manual part III spells it all out.

After you look at the manual, if you still need help, one of us will try to help.  Smiley

Lou
  

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Re: fuel: how to manage it
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2011 at 9:20pm
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Lou is right, those manuals really await you, lucatrader. I even heard them asking for you.  Cool

But the forum search would have shown quite some fuel threads too, so you may also take a look into this one, with excerpts from the fine manuals. http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299898971
  
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