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Realistic Routes (Read 2494 times)
boeing247
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Realistic Routes
Dec 18th, 2011 at 5:14pm
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This is probably a better question for Lou, but I'm sure some other people would know as well... Anyway, I usually use FlightAware to find real-world routes to fly, but considering while it can track flights all around the world, the data is incomplete for some international flight, thus it does not provide me with the route. Now, I can generally determine which SID's and STAR's to use based on runway and the direction you're flying in, but are there set procedures for deciding on which waypoints to use?

Thanks,
boeing247
  

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NNewcomb
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2011 at 5:25pm
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As far as I know, the airline makes the flight plans for the flights. . . I agree this is more of a Lou question! Haha  Wink
  

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CoastalDriver
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2011 at 11:22pm
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Boeing, most routes are an attempt to achieve the shortest distance between two points (Direct GPS) however in the real world for various and many reasons this is not the case.

The first and most obvious reason being that most if not all of the air routes around the world were designed on earlier great circle navigation and then had little bends or changes in them because they were all based on ground based navigation aids and you tracked via VOR or NDB from point to point along a route from A to B, except on long over water route segments. Geography had a lot to do with where you could actually get a VOR or NDB sited on the ground and so some of them have ended up in what seems like funny places because you had to get in an out to fix them or do maintenance on them by road or similar convieniance.

Second, There is also a rule about distance from land for various types of aircraft, except 4 engined aeroplanes, to allow for diversion to a nearby or nearest airport or to keep you within a distance in a one or two engine out configuration that also led to some funny routes that you see. Working this out is quite complex because of different aircraft performance specs, speeds and altitudes and general winds aloft etc for an engine out configuration and generally you will find on charts of routes that most of this is already built into the route structures. To give you an example, in Australia the longest non stop route was Sydney Perth or vice versa. Most airlines and aircraft except say a long range 707 could not legally do this and maintain the required statutory fuel reserves required for the flight (727 etc) so you would plan Sydney-Adelaide-Perth get over the top of Adelaide recalculate the fuel remaining and then do a slight of hand because you now only needed a smaller reserve for the remaining distance and go on your way to Perth without stopping, however if the winds were really against you and boy they could be some days, then you could land at Adelaide and refuel.

Third and probably most realistically, routes into and out of major cities are also structured to keep inbound and outbound aircraft seperated for Air Traffic Control purposes. So you tend to go one way departing and another arriving. You can generally pick this up from the route charts as they will put a little arrow on the air-route indicating the direction in which it is intended to be flown. Terminal charts tend to show this more clearly. Then having said that you could always try you luck with ATC and ask for inbound route going outbound and if the traffic allowed you might get it somedays, anything to save a few air miles and the precious fuel burn.

Then their are geographic or sovereignty issues where in one country won't let you fly a certain way because of defence or military reasons, so you end up with another strange dogleg around some point or place on the earth. Kamchatka in the old USSR was a case in point, go there or near there and they intercepted you and shot you down no ifs or buts, ask the Koreans they lost a couple like that.

So it has handy for simming to have the charts to look at and not just rely on the electronic software to do it for you. For the US the FAA publishes a broad scale chart which was for ATC purposes but is available free on their web site along with other charts. Trouble is the charts are designed to be printed on large scale plotter printers not your A4 printer so getting them dowin into sections you can print off at home is a chore!

Hope this helps explain some of the ins and outs of air routes.


  
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boeing247
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #3 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 3:26am
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That explains it pretty well, though as you said, it is quite complex. I'm sure people spend years learning how to plan routes, and obviously I can't plan them perfectly, but your tips allow for me to get closer to the real world routes if the waypoints aren't available.

By the way, where did you see all that info originally?
  

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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #4 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 3:30am
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For a worldwide sim coverage, maybe http://www.simroutes.com helps. They choose stuff with the focus to be realistic and online ATC approved. So you can't edit routes there, but only read predefined ones with an approval.
There are also easy links and a Google Maps display added, so you find the information about the airfields and things pretty quickly.
They don't have all airports listed, but major international ones are there.

http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ then renders some using the latest AIRAC. So it acts as a free source for current plans which, sometimes, may need a second look though.
  
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boeing247
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #5 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 3:42am
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Thanks, those look like they'd be pretty helpful, especially in tandem with the EFB.
  

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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #6 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 3:47am
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The second one is already included in the EFB interface, so if you want to open a route, there's a Route Finder button. Saves some clicks on importing.
As said, the route finder ones may need a closer look from time to time, but you can import one into EFB, then preview and then modify them to your likings, so that e. g. the waypoints for the SID and STAR match. Should work most of the time without extra work though.
  
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CoastalDriver
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #7 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 11:07am
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Boeing247, umm, have to say I have seen all that stuff originally in a variety of textbooks and manuals I have digested over the years as a real world pilot, then as an instructor (QFI) and as a testing captain or check captain not to mention the untold and useful wisdom of some old crusty buggers who I had as captains and teachers. So after a while you pick up a lot of stuff that sticks and sure is useful when your flying for a living and in my case mostly doing flights to places you have never been or been rarely, so as you can gather I was not an airline pilot but a military pilot and spent most of my flying life in remote areas and out over the ocean doing martime patrol work. If you want a good understanding of navigation techniques of the 707 727 period then US Air Force Manual of Navigation is as good as any place to start.

The simroute stuff is pretty good and I use it ocasionally but I have to say that a good navigation chart (radio and visual) is chock full of very useful information and the most useful is the legend that explains all the symbols and little shorthand ways that information is put onto charts. The real key though is preparation and having a good hard look at the route you intend to fly, terrain, radio aids, weather patterns, airfields etc. I am trying out SFP 405 (Super Flight Planner) it also seems more realistic but has a lot of bugs.

However I have to confess that I have probably forgotten as much as I ever learnt and the one thing I did learn about aviation was that you never stopped learning. Now I admit though I know nothing about heavy metal of the Boeing variety like LOU, as all the aeroplanes I ever flew all had propellors even the turbine powered ones and we never carried self loading baggage only ration munchers.

Í have always had flight sim programs, they were good to practice procedural stuff on and were well just fun and I am still at it, but I have to confess I do a lot of simming in the venerable DC-3 and the Lockheed Electra or P3 Orion which is about my speed in aviating, low and slow in the weeds Smiley.
  
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boeing247
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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 3:39pm
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Thanks, I'm not surprised to see you're a real world pilot. I asked because every time I get the handle on a system, I discover two additional ones that require mastering--I wanted to know if you had learned all that you've been saying from a particular source.  Smiley
  

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Re: Realistic Routes
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 7:17pm
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NNewcomb wrote on Dec 18th, 2011 at 5:25pm:
As far as I know, the airline makes the flight plans for the flights. . . I agree this is more of a Lou question! Haha  Wink


I like those 5-foot long flightplans
  

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