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David Paul
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Trouble navigating using airways
Jul 25th, 2011 at 6:15pm
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I am trying to fly IFR from KORD to KJFK, using a route that I believe is pretty close to what they do in real life.  I have no problem flying from VOR to VOR, but the use of intersections is throwing me off a little.   

My navlog takes me heading 086 to ELX vor, then 097 to CRL vor.  So far so good, I know how to do that.  But then it says to use heading 093 to intersection COHOW (123.2 miles) , then 097 to intersection SURLY (11 miles) , then 098 to JHW vor (58.9 miles).  Now for the leg to COHOW, am I supposed to track the 093 radial from CRL?  Or do I just turn to heading 093 and hope the wind doesn't throw me too far off?  Then, for the leg to SURLY, do I change back to the 097 radial from CRL, or just turn to that heading and once again hope that I don't get too far off course due to wind?   I know how to use DME to know when I have come the right distance.    This is all supposed to be following airway J554.   

I hope this makes sense.
  


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CoolP
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #1 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 6:56pm
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Hi, David. This is sort of hard to read for me, being not familiar with the route there.

I would use some charts from e. g. http://skyvector.com/ and then look up the corresponding radials to fly to.
You can enter your flight plan there and see it superimposed on the rw charts.

Now on those charts, you see the intersections being defined as cross radials (and coordinates for the RNAV/INS guys), so with two working nav radios, you can spot the more or less exact location there.
For example, for COHOW you follow the J554 which at that stage is defined as the 089 radial from CRL (Carleton VOR) until you cross the 167 radial from YXU (London VOR). That cross section defines the intersection COHOW, so tune CRL on NAv1 and YXU on Nav2 with the corresponding courses set.

Watch the RMI to catch a glimpse on your current position in relation to those two stations then and you won't miss a thing.

Now, if you fly with the AP tracking a VOR course it will always adjust for the winds, at least when the deviation is big enough to deflect the needle and therefore trigger the 'I'm not on course' signal, roughly spoken. The AP will then hunt the needle which works good when not too close to the station.
So on your way to COHOW, you track course (does not necessarily mean heading) 089 from CRL and you then can read any deviation on your CDI. When flying manually, adjust for the winds or just let the AP do the work.

I've attached a useful map view for you, marking some of the necessary values in red. You mainly need the defined cross radials and the stations to tune.
Feel free to explore that SkyVector service, it's free.

Click for big!
I've only set up a rough route there, so don't mind the actual route.

With the work on the cross radials and some DME readings, you can work very precisely there. This even allows you to turn 'smart', taking your groundspeed into account to not necessarily overfly any waypoint but to turn in the way a FMC would turn your plane, which means roughly some 10% of distance from your current GS value before the next waypoint.
So flying at 500 kts GS, you would start your turn around 5nm out of the waypoint, unless ATC or charts stress the need to overfly it.

For the pros, remember that DME readings don't read the ground based distance towards the station, but the one from the hypotenuse, so taking your actual height into account too. A greater distances though, the error effect there is close to nil (e. g. 130nm ground distance at FL340 give you a DME reading of 130,11 or so = not a problem).
  
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mrzeiten
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #2 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 7:00pm
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From VOR CRL you track radial 093.
When you are 123.2nm out from CRL you are at intersection COHOW.
Then turn heading 097 and tune your nav to JHW and enter course 098 in the HSI.
When the HSI intercept the 098 radial towards JHW you are in fact at SURLY (or very close due to the short distance between COHOW and SURLY).

Happy flying  Smiley
  
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LOU
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 7:15pm
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David,

Here is a High altitude chart of the leg CRL to JHW. [ vfrmap.com ]

I don't know why the various headings since the intersections are on the Jet airway.



The routing you talk about is J554, CRL to JHW.
You leave CRL on the 089 degree radial and fly
east to the X which
is the changeover point (I put a yellow circle around it).

This is the place you change from CRL to JHW.
The changeover point is not always the mid point
for many reasons such as VOR power and signal
because of its location, etc.

You will also see the two intersections are along J554.
COHOW is 71 DME from the JHW VOR and SURLY is 59 DME from JHW.
Example: COHOW is the 276 degree radial of JHW, but you would
place 096 in the OBS to fly TO the station.

The total mileage from CRL to JHW is 194 (Red Box).
If you add up each segment that is the total mileage.



Lou


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David Paul
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 8:16pm
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Thanks for the replies.  I am in the middle of the flight right now, flying outbound on the CRL 093 radial heading for COHOW.   I am dead on the radial according to my HSI.  This is the maddening part---I just got instruction from ATC to turn left to heading 065!!!!   Checking the GPS (which I hate to do when I am trying to fly without using it)  I am indeed several miles to the right of the flight plan.   Why would this happen when I am following the radial dead-on?   Why would the Navlog have 093 as the correct radial to be on when going from CRL to COHOW if that is not correct?   GRRRRR!!!
  


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LOU
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 9:07pm
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Dave,

Just to show you what I have, here is a screen capture I just took of the 727 VOR tuned to JHW 114.7 and tracking inbound to the VOR on the 096 degree radial at 71 DME.

The GPS shows the COHOW intersection as slightly to the right less than an 1/8 of a mile.

* Remember, you must change over to the JHW VOR at the changeover point which is shown on the high altitude chart with an X.



This is a blow-up of the HSI showing the plane is slightly north of course which confirms the GPS.

Note: At sixty miles, one degree is one mile wide. This HSI indication would be very close and no ATC would ever even question the position.




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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #6 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 9:12pm
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On my chart, you go radial 089 from CRL, not 093. 093 sets you up too far right then. JHW radial is 276 later, or 096 inbound.
http://skyvector.com/

Another option.
Do you have the gyro drift in FSX enabled? Press D or turn it off completely in the FSX realism menu. It doesn't add realism but confusion only.  Grin

But I think the wrong course setting is the culprit in your case.

With ATC, maybe the old trick from the films work. Act as if you can't hear them.  Grin
Ok, nowadays you would actually see F-16 coming up left and right soon, so be aware.  Shocked
  
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David Paul
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #7 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 9:53pm
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OK.  So it seems that the info provided for the FSX Navlog is WRONG.  That would explain what is going on here.   

Thanks for the links to skyvector.  That is insanely cool.   I think I'll try to do the flight again with the info from there, maybe I'll be able to stay on course.

  


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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #8 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:11pm
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Lou's link does the same I think, so praises to him first. Skyvector just adds the flight plan overlay.
I'd recommend that really short but superb video on their site to get behind their great and free service features.
Both sites are great and both (as a side note) had to fight some new payware 'solution' in the past, so supporting them is vital. Sadly, the service is mainly limited to the US.

Regarding some sim headings and the rw ones, you have to be aware of the magnetic declination though.
This is modelled in the sim, but it derives from another magnetic year, so not 2010 or 2011 or so, but much older. The offset therefore is bigger. I think FSX and FS9 even share their magnetic basis.
This alone will alter the course information in the sim, so they don't match the ones on current or close to current charts (using another, more current, magnetic year).

But you can update that magnetic declination file in FSX easily with the one from here. http://hsors.pagesperso-orange.fr/navaids.html
I'm using it since it came out and it adds much more precise data to the sim then since you actually update the modelled 'magnetic year' by this, which is a basis of the FSX system, so expect magnetic headings to be changed after the update. Worth a try.
It's just one small file, so you can backup the old one and replace it then. Instructions are included.


I never really used the FSX nav log, but if it gives you headings only, it's hard to fly along that given information since a heading only works in no wind scenarios, which do not happen when using any weather input in the sim.
Any slight winds and you're off that heading (regarding your real track on the surface), only FMC birds or the guys like Lou could compensate that efficiently and then really track 093 or whatever degrees (if commanded to do so, track).
For the rest, this will be some work and maths to do, turning the plane into the winds at the right amount to really fly 093 while you nose points e. g. to 098 and with a correction for every wind change. Devices like the INS also help you there if available.

But I wouldn't care much about the FSX planner, but set up my plans on sites like Skyvector or in some freeware planners which give you nice course (not heading) information and corresponding VORs for example.
For the simple VOR to VOR stuff, e. g. Plan-G is good and visualizes your route extremely well since it was meant as a VFR planner. http://www.tasoftware.co.uk/planG.htm
  
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #9 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 5:41pm
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Geez, I hope that after my long texts, David hasn't gone MIA.  Undecided
  
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David Paul
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #10 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:21pm
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CoolP wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 5:41pm:
Geez, I hope that after my long texts, David hasn't gone MIA.  Undecided



Haha.  Actually, my silence has been due to my having a great deal of fun with all the useful info you guys gave me!

Still figuring it out little by little, but skyvector has been key to getting a better understanding.   I still have some issues with flightplans that make use of airways but don't provide information on VORs to fly them.  Mainly in Europe, where I can't seem to find any free chart sites that are similar to skyvector or vfrmap.


Today I was trying to fly from EGPF to EHAM, and the plan was making use of UL602, UL90, and UL602.   I was OK with U602, but then when I needed to turn onto UL90 I was lost, then even more so when I needed to turn onto UL603.  

I also had trouble trying to go from KCMI to KIAD today.  I managed to get turned onto J149 by using ROD radial 123, but then at intersection GEFFS I was supposed to start heading towards intersection SINDEE with a course of 99-100.  There is a VOR called AML that I wanted to track onto the radial 100 for, but I couldn't receive it before I was off course enough for ATC to have to help me.  


  


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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #11 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:22pm
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I'm not convinced David understands what he is doing wrong!  Undecided

Lou
  

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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #12 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:27pm
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LOU wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:22pm:
I'm not convinced David understands what he is doing wrong!  Undecided

Lou



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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #13 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:39pm
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Sadly, there's no such neat service in the European area, but you can access some free charts (without flight plan overlay or something) here and there.
I think Eurocontrol offers some, with a free registration.

For planning along flight sim routes, I'm using Flight Sim Commander though, but this is payware and may distract you when starting as it has a rather old interface. There's a free trial available, just google it if you like.
FS Build may also be a tip there, the older 1.x version were freeware I think.

There are tons of features included in both and maybe the moving map helps on the first few runs. You can display and measure distances, bearings and so on and current nav data is also supported.
At least one more or less serious flight planning tool like these can be recommended in my eyes.

There are online services too, offering a free and a payware area, but I haven't tested those. Some work on a subscription basis, which I don't like much. But some planning features did sound good though, including maps and charts of all kind.
  
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Re: Trouble navigating using airways
Reply #14 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:41pm
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LOU wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:22pm:
I'm not convinced David understands what he is doing wrong!  Undecided

Lou

The good thing about the sim: fail/try until you learn.
RW: fail once and hope you have learning time left.

In the high times of the Cold War, they've shot down a fully loaded airliner being hundreds of nm off course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
A sad but interesting read.
  
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