Hi Everyone,
I'm trying to land my 707 as per the manual and I'm having problems. I'm not a real life pilot so if anyone with real world experience can give me advice I'd appreciate it.
My landing weight is about 220k pounds. According to the manual, Vth for that weight is 130 with Flaps 40. Flaps 14 is Bug +30. I guess my first question is are they referring to Bug as Vth? Then, flaps 25 occur at Bug+20, and finally flaps 40 happens at Bug +10. At  220k lbs. the plane just seems to heavy to have KIAS 130 at touchdown. I have to have to nose way up with N1 at 80% and then I can't see the runway. So what am I doing wrong? When my Vth is 150 I can land the plane fine at that weight but according to the manual that is too fast.  Again just trying to put realism into the 707 experience. Any advice is appreciated.

Lou,
Thanks for your detailed explanation. Adding that extra 10k of speed makes landing much easier. So I guess the manual is correct? In your recollection of the 707, if your landing weight is 220k lbs., does 140 kias with flaps 40 seem like a accurate landing speed?
Thanks again for all your efforts.

Thanks Lou,
So to increase roll rate on the 707 would you have to set the spoilers or would they kick in automatically based on your commands? . I'll try a roll using spoilers and see if that helps performance. The 143kts ( and the formula you provided)  makes landing a lot easier
As you mentioned, the boost pumps on the controls really make the 727 much more concise and responsive in every aspect of flight.
I've never used flaps 50 as I read in the manual this was used for shorter or wet runways when less distance was needed. Think I'll rely  of the advice of a real 707 pilot such as yourself. Thank so much for all your help.

Hi Lou,
That was really interested learning about the spoilers and the fact that they weren't used inflight. On decent's I really have a hard time slowing the 707 to the point where I can start deploying flaps and it seems I always wind up using the spoiler for this purpose. I always use the 3:1 rule when starting a decent at try keeping VSI around 2200, and maintain a speed of around 250 kias.But she has such a hard time slowing down, even when power is set at idle. So I always end up using spoilers to slow down. The 727 slows very fast once throttle is reduced but not the 707. So how did you keep her in line  during a decent without using the spoilers. Again, your help and informative description are so appreciated.

LOU wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 2:45am:

A question Lou. When you were flying the 707, did you use the rule - Ground Speed x 5 = Vertical Speed as way of determining your VS at the T/D?

i.e. Current Ground Speed at FL350 is 500. Using the 3:1 rule for T/D means that I need to start the descent at 105 miles from my destination. Now.
Using the rule GS x 5 = VS (500 x 5 = 2500) would mean that I need the VS to be 2500 feet per minute. As I get lower, my ground speed gets slower and so the VS should match. So at FL200 with a GS of 400 (400 x 5 = 2000) will mean that my VS should be 2000 fpm?

Any guide lines on this rule will be greatly appreciated. I do use this rule and I do find it quite helpful, but there are still times when I wind up too high and too close. I also do a lot of checks to make sure that at I'm maintaining the 3:1 rule as closely as possible and I find that I need to use the spoilers regardless. The fact that it is possible to turn off the inboard spoilers is new to me, but I will have to give it a try.

Mark

Mark & BrianG, the 3X the altitude is at idle power.

This 3X altitude, is a good place to start your descent plan. You apply the wind and adjust the distance.  Your example using the ground speed is fine, but the old planes did not have ground speed readout, so you had to do a time vs distance on the DME and calculate GS. None of that sissy information in these old birds. Which ever system you use, you need to keep updating the calculations in your head as you descend so as not to bust an altitude or get too low or too high since winds change etc. In the Boeing manual it states that the most efficient flight path is a power off descent. In the real world there are many factors that constantly change during either climb or descent. Temperature also effects what the plane will do in climb or descent. A/I on or off makes a difference. Remember, these are just guides, but they worked pretty well. When I got to the fancy planes with all the computers and glass it was apparent that the atmosphere would change a lot as you climbed or descended. One of the greatest tools is the wind vector arrow in the HSI. Keeping track of changes in the local wind was a great help in flying the profile.

I don't remember the exact numbers from the flight handbook, but I seem to recall a descent at cruise mach to around FL290 or so and then around 290 to 300 KTS down to 10,000 feet and then 250 KTS. If you descend slower you will be high and of course too fast, lower.

Hint: if you see you are too high or too low on the descent profile...adjust speed to get back on the profile.   You can always add some thrust if you are getting too low.

We hardly ever needed spoilers unless ATC changed some altitude restriction at the last minute. You could adjust the FPM/IVSI over a wide range with speed changes. To slow from 300 KTS to the 250 KTS restriction at 10,000' would take several miles, so you had to factor that as well.

LOU wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 6:32pm:
Thanks again for your invaluable information Lou. I have been cheating and using the default GPS 500. From now on I will go by the 3X the altitude is at idle power rule. I will ignore the GS that appears in the GPS. That's going to an interesting challenge, I'm 1350 miles from Honolulu (as I type) and so I will get to test that rule in about 3 hours or so. If I mess this up it's back to approach and landing practice I will go.

Mark

Brian. I mostly use the GPS as a map so I know exactly where I am. However, the Ground Speed is displayed on the main page so I can't help but see it. I know the 707 has a map (SHIFT+4) and I love how far back zooms, but it lacks information to help me know where I am. (I don't have printed Departure, Arrival and Enroute charts on my lap. I have been thinking of getting buy charts and stuff for Navigraph nDac, but I need to look into this more before I do. Is there anyone who uses nDac that can tell me what they think of it?

Now for the results of my descent, approach and landing at PHNL.

I was at FL370, 260 knots with a tail wind. I decided to start my descent at 126 miles from HNL (15 miles early). I reduced the throttles to idle and, because I was already going slower than 280 knots, started my descent immediately. With the throttles at idle the 707 still slowed to  240 knots even though my VS was 2200-2400 fpm. I had to use the throttle to try to maintain 280-300 knots! I manage to stay close to the numbers all the way down to 5000 feet. I captured the ILS and shortly after that, the GS. Although it went well I still only just made it down to the 5000 feet in time to catch the G/S. It was closer than I would prefer.

My big surprise was how much my 707 slowed down at idle with 2000+ fpm VS at that high altitude. I think I need to practice up a bit more on this. And next time I'll cruise at ~M0.84 instead of M0.80.

Mark