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 25 Lou - STORIES (Read 675735 times)
JayG
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Lou - STORIES
Feb 21st, 2011 at 5:11pm
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Lou
I enjoy reading your posts as much as I do flying the planes, you are an amazing source of information, thank you!

Now I have a request, how about some 'stories' from your past airline experiances? I would love to hear them, I know you must have 100's! �Wink
  

Flight Lead: "Bandits at 3 oclock!!!"&&Wingman: "It's only 2:30 now, what do we do til then?"
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Re: Lou
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2011 at 9:04pm
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Thanks! Glad you like my rambles...



Here I am with my old plane. OK, it's been a few years since this photo was taken, but none the less here it is!  Grin
This is a North American AT-6-G with a P&W R-1344 -650 HP engine that converted gasoline directly into noise.

I'll come up with a few stories from time to time, maybe some of the things should not be told!  Wink

Here is a short story I wrote back in 1996 soon after TWA flight 800 crashed. The story is about some special people that were brought into the sadness of the event and how they live. My wife and I remain very close friends with the folks in this story and I hope you enjoy reading about them. The story is in .pdf format.

http://home.comcast.net/~lou.lynn/800.pdf


Lou
  

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Re: Lou
Reply #2 - Feb 22nd, 2011 at 2:24am
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What a great story, thanks for sharing! I hope more are coming.

I envy you that T-6. Every once in a while I get to Kissimmee and spend an hour in one at Warbirds Adventures. What a fun plane to fly, especially when there are 2 of us and we get to 'dogfight'   Cool
  

Flight Lead: "Bandits at 3 oclock!!!"&&Wingman: "It's only 2:30 now, what do we do til then?"
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Re: Lou
Reply #3 - Feb 22nd, 2011 at 1:53pm
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Thanks for the article Lou. I love that T6 must be a hell of a ride compared to the C172 that I fly  Cheesy
  

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Re: Lou
Reply #4 - Feb 24th, 2011 at 10:47am
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Thanks for the reading too, Lou. "So many questions" as one tenor there .. just like in the forums, huh?  Smiley
Sadly, TWA 800 is another example of the learning process in aviation which often enough causes some tragic outcome in the first place and, later, some learning and changes.
I remember some crash investigator getting quoted with "aviation is a constant consideration of security needs and the costs for it". Do you remember the first years of the DC-10 for example?  Embarrassed

Concerning the plane shown in your pic. "engine that converted gasoline directly into noise" sounds really good, but I think she's not alone in the skies (although nowadays, she would be more or less).
  
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Re: Lou
Reply #5 - Feb 24th, 2011 at 5:10pm
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Folks,

The North American AT-6 was one of the nicest planes to fly. It was just a big Cub. The "G" model had a P-51 tail wheel which made it very civilized on the ground, but it still wanted to show you who was boss every once in a while. The wing on the T-6 was a scaled down version of the DC-3. In military dress it weighed in around 6,500 pounds, but in civilian use it slimmed down to around 4,400 pounds. That made for a very nice short field plane. There were three of us in the area with T-6's and we would do the air show rounds in the summers. We had a smoke system on the plane and one of the guys had fake guns in the wing that shot a gas and oxygen mix that was very loud.

During an air show they would provide a special oil for the smoke. It was some "non" polluting type oil and was kept in a ten gallon tank under the rear seat. We would often have some left over after the show. This day I was returning home from the show and had quite a bit left in the tank. It was a beautiful clear day, so as I headed home I asked ATC if they had time to make a call for me. I gave them the number and told them to tell the lady who answered that there was a message in the sky for her. Now as you remember the T-6 excelled in converting avgas directly into noise. If you were not careful on takeoff the prop tip would go supersonic and make a very loud noise so you would bring the propeller back just a bit to avoid this. On the way back from the show I flew right over my house at around 4,000 feet and ran the prop up to full RPM. My wife was in the basement of the house and told me later it was very loud indeed. As she left the house to look up in the sky she grabbed the camera and shot this photo...



I was just finishing my message as you can see. 4,000 feet was a bit low to do sky writing since the air gets too roughed up and the smoke gets torn away, but I just made it! Cool

Lou
  

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Re: Lou
Reply #6 - Feb 24th, 2011 at 6:00pm
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A pilot AND a romantic!  Wink
  

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Re: Lou
Reply #7 - Feb 24th, 2011 at 9:05pm
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Lou and all - should I move the thread to General section? Will it be more convenient?
  
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Re: Lou
Reply #8 - Feb 24th, 2011 at 9:29pm
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OK by me...  Wink

Lou
  

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Re: Lou
Reply #9 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 1:02am
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Captain Sim 2 wrote on Feb 24th, 2011 at 9:05pm:
Lou and all - should I move the thread to General section? Will it be more convenient?


Sure
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #10 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 10:22am
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Done! It is always interesting to read your stories, Lou!
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #11 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 5:36pm
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Hey, Lou. I've showed the "smoking story" to my girlfriend and it made her smile the way I like it.
So I'm currently attaching some smoke machine to my .. ok, it's only a sim aircraft, but who knows?  Cool

However, do you know about this old war between fighter pilots and the airliner folks?
So, who are the best pilots then? Fighter guys or tubeliner folks?  Tongue
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #12 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 7:09pm
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CoolP,

You are already smoking something!  Cheesy

Try doing some skywriting in maybe the Extra. It's harder that you think.

As for who makes the best pilot... It's the pilot with a fire in the belly for flying that makes the BEST pilot - hands down!

Lou - too old to fall for that trick.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #13 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 4:20pm
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Quote:
too old to fall for that trick.

Seems like that question has some potential of some kind when you avoid the answer.  Tongue
But no problem of course, Lou.

So, from your long Boeing experience, what was or still is your favourite plane from that company?
The latest and greatest or something in between where the character came together with amazing capabilities or some welcome evolution from its predecessors?

Or what's the most annoying thing you can remember to be present on some plane. Something where you always though "why the h... did they do it like this?".
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #14 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 4:54pm
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" who are the best pilots then? Fighter guys or tubeliner folks? "

I'm sure most have heard this before, but for those that havent....

A F16 was escorting a C 130 on a long flight and got bored so he pulled in front of the 130, got on the radio and said 'Watch this!' He then did a couple of ailerons rolls, pulled vertical, did a loop around the 130, then pulled up along side again with a huge grin on his face, and asked the 130 pilots what they thought about that.

Not to be outdone, the 130 captain said 'watch THIS!' For 5 minutes the F16 pilot sat there but nothing happened. Finally the 130 pilot came back on the radio and asked the 16 pilot what he thought. He said he didnt see anything, what was so special? The 130 pilot replied.......

"I got up from my seat, walked back to the galley, had a drink and a nice lunch, stretched my legs, and visited the head, and had a smoke, what do you think about that?"

Not another word was spoken on the radio   Smiley
  

Flight Lead: "Bandits at 3 oclock!!!"&&Wingman: "It's only 2:30 now, what do we do til then?"
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #15 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 5:39pm
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That's a good one, Jay.  Grin

As a Fighter pilot, you don't receive such nice letters too.

from here http://www.skygod.com/quotes/flyingjokes.html, great site by the way.
Quote:
Airspeed: Speed of an airplane. Deduct 25% when listening to a Navy pilot.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #16 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 6:52pm
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CoolP asked...
So, from your long Boeing experience, what was or still is your favourite plane from that company?
The latest and greatest or something in between where the character came together with amazing capabilities or some welcome evolution from its predecessors?

Or what's the most annoying thing you can remember to be present on some plane. Something where you always though "why the h... did they do it like this?".


The best plane for many reasons IMHO is the 757! This plane can do just about everything. It's fun to fly and can land in short strips and does just about everything in between. You can fly it on short runs and make money and then do the same flying across the ocean. The 767 was nice to fly, but too big to fly into small places. My first plane was the 727 and I'll always have a special place for this baby. The 727 was the last of the push rod & cable planes. All the new stuff is really fly-by-wire. We used to call flying the 727 "pig wrestling" because it was a hand full some times. You've seen where we call it the pig because it was no performer. Heavy and hot were a real challenge in the 727. The 757 on the other hand did just fine.

The 747, even though easy to fly, was a pain to operate because so many little things would go wrong with systems or cabin items. The log book was always full of write-ups that took time to fix and made being on time difficult. Also, the plane had a thing called simplex wiring. They would use one wire to control several different cabin items. This was done by various frequencies sent over the wire to turn things on and off. This never worked all that well and made it a pain to have stuff in the cabin like lights and stereo work properly. Also the cockpit in the 747 had very loud noise from the air going by the window in flight. 757 & 767 are much better.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #17 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 7:17pm
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There's another quite happy 757 Captain around, Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzwAxZ6rad
So this thing seems to attract a bunch of people.

The 727 stays a beautiful plane though, like the 1011. They just look cool with their #2 intake and those swept wings (727).
Funny to read about noisy 747 environments. These planes (if not operated around Japan) are loud throughout some very long trips then.  Huh
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #18 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 1:50am
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Wow. Nice letter, who does that little girl hang around with?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #19 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 2:05am
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I think most of the air noise in the cockpit was caused by the sharp edges on the windows and to a lesser extent the windshield wipers.

The 727 was so noisy that most pilots did not fly above 300 KTS IAS. Below 300 KTS it was tolerable, but the level of noise went up sharply as you flew faster. Same for the 747 and to a lesser extent the 707. The 757 and 767 were whisper quiet compared to the older Boeing planes.

As I've said before, the windshield wiper noise on the 727 was beyond anything else in aviation. It was so loud that you could not talk to the other pilot and it did little to remove rain to boot! The wipers were powered by different motors and would operate at different speeds and get out of sync. I would laugh at the scene of the two wipers violent trashing as they flung back and forth. The 757 / 767 were much better.

Don't talk to me about rain repellent (Rain Bow) because that was just useless and only tried once by most pilots. If you hit the rain repellent button on a too dry windshield, you had messed up your vision for the rest of the flight until someone was able to scrub the stuff off.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #20 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 12:17pm
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You are right, pj, we have to talk to the mother of that girl.  Grin

Lou, when watching the beginning of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8_gcDVucdY) the wipers in the 727 really look like "rough engineering". Bolts and nuts are visible, and we're talking about a thing at the very front of an airplane without any cowling.
Just like they've finished the plane and then someone said: "Man, we forgot the wipers!" and another one answered "I'll take those from my car, they will do the job, I think".  Cheesy

By the way, Lou, you've mentioned the 757 to be very versatile when going for almost any available airport (not airfield though). What's your favourite memory of an approach then? Was it the really bad weather at some major airport or was it the difficult flying at a smaller location?
The video shows Sucre in Bolivia, a nice and demanding thing because of the altitude, I think, while the procedure itself shouldn't be a big deal for the pros if I should guess.
For those who are interested. Look here.


The video later shows some "pull up!" warning and also a view around the cockpit, showing at least two ladies without flying duties. I wonder if 5 people around is a "sterile cockpit".  Huh
And that 727 trim sound is really annoying, don't you think?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #21 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 4:57pm
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CollP,
In another post I said that the wipers must have been designed by the same #@%# engineer that designed the noisy trim wheel!  Angry



As you can see in this approach plate there is a ton of information that the pilot must keep in mind and understand. The runway elevation of almost 9,500 feet puts this airport at the upper limit of "pig flying." The GPWS probably went off as they flew over a hill and the computer saw the rising terrain. As long as they were visual and understood the nature of the alert, thats OK. A look at the MSA (minimum sector altitude) circle in the upper right part of the plate gives you a good idea of what's around the airport. Also, night operations for this approach are NA - Thank God!

From the MAP (missed approach point) 2,5 DME from SUR VOR to the threshold is only 1.5 miles and you have to loose almost 1,400 feet - that is pretty steep. Remember a normal glide slope is 300 feet per mile. This approach will require almost 1,000 FPM if you are IMC and just go visual at the MAP in order to have Miss Piggy in a position to land. I don't know what the runway length is of RW 23, but even though the IAS on the approach would be about the same as the IAS for a low level landing, the true airspeed is higher in that skinny air so the speed across the ground at landing is faster. Stopping becomes a factor. No US carrier and most carriers for that matter would allow these young ladies in the cockpit because of the distraction they might cause.  Wink

You ask about some interesting approaches...

One night I was flying KSTL to KICT in "La Pig." The weather was nasty. A long line of thunderstorms was moving across the middle of the US. The northern end of the line was up in Canada and the south end somewhere in Mexico. Mid-west weather is violent compared to other parts of the country.

This little piggy - a 727 -100 - had old style "C" band type radar. This radar was pretty good, but you had to know how to adjust the gain and the tilt to glean what was really out in front of you. The ATC controller was very help full in passing on information form the ICT tower. He would relay things like "the tower reports the storms over the field, moving east at 40 KTS., heavy rain, lighting in cloud, cloud to cloud and cloud to ground." Nice night!

Well, I was able to find a few small holes in the line and popped out to the west side without too much trashing about. The light show was very cool and there was a bright moon to add to the scene. When we switched over to approach control we were happy to hear that the line was now east of ICT and to plan on landing on 19R since the wind was now out of the south east at 15 to 20 KTS. We were in the clear at 5,000 feet and started a descent for landing. Even though we were in clear air the turbulence was pretty strong because of all the fast moving air trying to keep up with the cold front.

As we started down the ILS the tower reported winds at 1,000 feet were 350 degrees at 58 KTS.  Shocked  This was reported by a plane in front of us that had INS and ground speed readout. We knew we had a strong tailwind because the rate of descent was very high just to stay on the G/S. The tower reported the wind shift would happen around 500 feet. All this time during the approach the bumps were pretty bad. OTTO (our autopilot) was not able to handle this kind of abuse, so I was "pig wrestling" (hand flying) the plane. At the outer marker, we could not see the ground as we had entered an area of moderate rain. About 3 miles from the runway we observed ground contact and a bit latter the approach lights started coming into view. As we approached 500 feet we were poised to go around because of the sink rate being high and the turbulence being heavy. Just as advertised, at 500 feet it became fairly smooth and we had a pretty good head wind shear.

The saying goes...Flying is hours and hours of shear boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror!

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #22 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm
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darn, I started this thread and I just now noticed there was a second page, I wondered why it was soooooooooo  quiet!

Thats what I get for using a desktop shortcut, but I'm caught up now, good stuff! I think I met that little girl once, but she was older   Smiley
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #23 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 8:39am
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I had to laugh, about myself. Thanks to Lou, I (once again) was shown that I'm just some sim pilot, looking at the chart and saying "meh, not that difficult"  while the rw pilot Lou sees all the "small" problems some values might cause.
As said, I was and still am aware about the high altitude there and the shortcomings in thrust while coming in steep and fast, but I think my brain just lacks of the actual feel of the thing, so I don't get any worries but just try it in the sim.
If I fail .. I reload the flight.  Cheesy

Nice story on that approach, Lou. I like the AP's name. OTTO. Is that from the Otto of Captain Future's bird?  Tongue He was very flexible though.

Lou, I've got another potential question for you, after you (politely) got out of the fighter vs. airline pilot thingy.
You, as a rewarded Boeing Captain and also US citizen are now being asked what you think about the Airbus approach on commercial aviation.
Is "Fly by Wire" together with "Laws" something to drive you mad or will you stay unimpressed?
If you follow the videos with Bruce D., the 757 Captain, you will find him reviewing some Airbus and being quite surprised how well the stuff works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKBABNL-DDM

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I met that little girl once, but she was older 

And she still wasn't scared?  Cool
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #24 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 9:59pm
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"If you follow the videos with Bruce D., the 757 Captain, you will find him reviewing some Airbus and being quite surprised how well the stuff works."

Ask the guys flying USAir 1549 how they like a Scarebus Smiley

The first bus I ever was was at the Paris airshow. Seeing a prefectly fine plane plow into the trees and kill everyone onboard because the computer 'law' said it was time to land made a lasting impression with me. I decided right then and there I would never get in one, and I never have, real life or sim. Just to be fair, I don't much like a 777 or MD11 either  Smiley
  

Flight Lead: "Bandits at 3 oclock!!!"&&Wingman: "It's only 2:30 now, what do we do til then?"
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #25 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 11:42pm
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I think your view on that mentioned flight could well be called somehow superficially, but I intend no offense here.
Wikipedia might help a bit, but the picture stays diffuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 so no clear "Pilot!" or "machine!" can be spoken in my eyes.
Seems like a sad roule in such cases, on thing out of many leads to another one, building a chain one has to break. Sometimes nobody does. And even experienced pilots get upset and forget to slam the throttles to the top end of the range if they want to enable TOGA. If engines then fail, the only law that comes to my mind would be Murphy's then.

But you've mentioned the Hudson River "landing" (USAir1549). From my point of view, this is a big pro for Airbus there since the thing proved to be able to let a good Captain land, even on water. So maybe I don't get the point your were stating.
Bird strike can't be prevented by FbW.

The question of good or bad in case of the Fly by Wire stuff is somehow obsolete though but I still am interested in opinions here. The stuff is there, since decades, and is used every second as we're typing.
Even the law based operation is very common, not only at the Airbus planes. So if there was a proof of a system not being able to maintain safety throughout a huge envelope, it just wouldn't get installed, despite all emotions towards chips and electric cables. CFIT (Controlled flight into terrain) for example can (and did) happen with or without electronics, it just takes a weak link in the chain.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #26 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 12:41am
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From your link CoolP...
"Captain Asseline also reported that the engines didn't respond to his throttle input as he attempted to increase power"

They had plenty of time to go around, the computers wouldnt let them, which is also my point about USAir. The Scarebuses use FADEC intregrated into the flight computers. When the FADEC says 'shut em down', they shut down and you aint gonna restart them until the computers say you can.

In a Boeing you probably would not have lost full power in both engines and would have had enough to get back to JFK or even Newark. I have a bit of insight into that crash, as a good friend of mine was the Capt on the exact same plane the day before. You might remember a news blurb about it having a compressor stall. They had numerous problems with that plane well before a few birds brought it down.

My whole point is, Boeing gives the pilot options, Scarebusses think the pilot is just there to drink coffee and check out the cabin crew.  Grin

If it aint Boeing, I aint going!
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #27 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 1:09am
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Quote:
If it aint Boeing, I aint going!

I think I've got your point there. From my experience, flight sim forums never lack of emotions which is their good and their bad at the very same time.  Smiley

How did we get here? Ah, I remember, opinions, thoughts and feelings towards some modern aspects of flying.
How would Lou like the A380 and how would a young pilot like the 707 for example?

Here's some nice training video for another classic. I really like this "son, sit down and let me explain" flair in the videos. Aviation looks so easy (joking) and handcrafted there. E. g., see how one "walks the throttles". Enjoy!  Smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZQSqtAxnr0

Part 2 (the French Italian guys better not watch the sign they make for "ok")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMS4oEhf6sE

Part 3 (watch at 4:00 to get one of the coolest explanations of lift, drag and AoA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHCVUsx8K7M
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #28 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 4:43pm
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Great links, thanks for posting.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #29 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 3:25pm
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CoolP wrote:
Lou, I've got another potential question for you, after you (politely) got out of the fighter vs. airline pilot thingy.
You, as a rewarded Boeing Captain and also US citizen are now being asked what you think about the Airbus approach on commercial aviation.
Is "Fly by Wire" together with "Laws" something to drive you mad or will you stay unimpressed?
If you follow the videos with Bruce D., the 757 Captain, you will find him reviewing some Airbus and being quite surprised how well the stuff works.


Well, first I never flew the bus so I really don't have a full prospective on its operation, but I have an opinion.

All the modern planes after the 727 are fly-by-wire. The big yoke in the 757 or 747 is really just a joy stick. You move the yoke and signals are sent to a flight control computer to move a certain control. But, and it's a big but, Boeing's logic has always been to let the pilot fly the plane even if parameters are exceeded. I have to agree with JayG when it comes to Bus vs Boeing. There could be a time you might need to really roll the plane hard or pitch up or down big time. As a pilot I want that option. I think the woodcutter was a very good example of bad laws. As a flight instructor in the airlines I would remind the pilots that the plane never read the flight handbook and could do stuff that was not in the good book.

Computers are great - to a point. All I need to say is "Microsoft Windows" and you get the point.  Tongue
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #30 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 3:51pm
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Don't forget, Lou, this Windows runs our beloved Sim.  Smiley
But I got your point there.

Those laws and not-laws are interesting in many ways since, as you've pointed out, the most newer planes from both devs are driven "by wire" (some partially, some fully) and all the things which differentiates them in case of the policy of operation then is within some software.
Of course, the design of the ac is another factor too, but as they have to fight the same physical laws there, some things might be more similar than one thinks.

For the guys wondering, even the Airbus can be flown "directly" (by design in some situations) and intentionally, when you disable all the "law containing stuff". I own some very interesting video where an A320 Captain goes through the systems, on the real plane and the (airline!) Simulator.
In the Sim, he disables the stuff to show that the "Tex Johnson Roll" (ever me met him? must have been a cool guy too) is available too in the A320. Fun to watch, maybe I can find this stuff on youtube.


Did you watch those linked videos here, about the B17 training?
That's a very sympathetic impression about learning an aircraft, isn't it? That "ol' buddy" (instructor) tells his younger fellow how to go on the old Boeing (which was new back then).
Although, this instructor isn't that old, but as most pilots of that time started very, very soon (they seemed to have been in great need of Pilots, for good reason), he, relatively, might be.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #31 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:24pm
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CoolP,

I love the old Army videos.
We still had stuff like this in the 60's.

Lou
  

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Reply #32 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:43pm
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Did you encounter any emergencies in all those years, Lou? And, if so, what was done to prevent a repeated incident?
Since you've always landed at the right airport (knowing from another thread around), there may be some other stories waiting to be told. Flown a barrel roll for good reason or something.  Cool
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #33 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 3:18pm
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CoolP,

Once in the early 70's I was flying a charter from KHOU to LFPG. We were heavy with fuel and as we leveled off at cruise altitude I noticed that the number two turbo compressor had tripped off. I tried to restart the compressor to no avail. I started looking around and noticed the #2 low oil pressure light would not test??? Then I found a few other weired things that were not looking right with #2 engine. I took a walk back in the cabin to have a look at the #2 engine. It looked normal except there was what looked like some plastic sticking out from the front part of the cowl.

On returning to the cockpit I decided to check the fire warning system. All tested normal except #2, it would not test??? After checking other things on #2 it was decided to shut it down and land in KJFK to see what was going on. We had to dump fuel to get near landing weight. The fuel dump chute on the 707 is between the engines instead of at the end of the wing. Dumping is always something to be careful with!

We were able to give the company a heads up for our arrival and they had a second plane ready so we could move the passengers from the sick plane to another plane without delay. When we got to the gate and the #2 cowl was opened we discovered that the 15th stage high pressure bleed duct had cracked and very hot air was leaking into the engine cowl. It had melted almost all the wiring for the various items that we saw in the cockpit. The fire warning did not work is because some of the wiring had melted - bad design  Angry . The stuff that looked like plastic sticking out of the cowl was the melted blocker doors from the fan reverser section.

Since this was older cable and push rod design, we were able to shut the engine down with mechanical controls. I wonder if these new fly-by-wire designs would have survived all that heat and let us shut the engine down?

Lou
  

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Reply #34 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 3:48pm
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Good question about the FADEC + FBW stuff. There are some reported incidents where they only had a fallback engine (last active) state or one which does everything, but no shut down.
On first view, the "manual shut down" at the airport looks very odd. Last seen on that Qantas A380 (I think). Firetrucks giving all they've got to cause a flameout on an engine which is proven to withstand quite some water until this happens.
They've said that they had control over the engine (wasn't the blown one, but it's neighbour, #1) concerning the power output, but couldn't shut it down.
So the list of personnel being able to shut down an engine looks like this.
1) Pilots
2) FE (if present)
3) Fire Fighter
4) Baggage cart driver (doesn't necessarily have to be present at shutdown)

4 times redundancy, now that's what I call safe.  Grin

Always a tradeoff it seems, going from old and mechanic to anything newer, avoiding surges, increasing efficiency and stuff.
Maybe the manual shutdown leads to things like this then?



Do you have any favourite approaches which (maybe) still are very demanding or nice, even in the sim?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #35 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 6:22pm
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A fun approach is the river approach into RW 18 at KDCA. It was a lot of fun in the 727 since you had to do the math to make the crossing altitudes, but the 757 was easy since it was all built into the computer display.

A real different approach was the FDS approach into LFPG. Back in the early 70's in the 707 landing in Paris in the fog was tough since there was no CAT-II or CAT-III back then. So, the French rigged up this cool system called FDS - fog dispersal system. Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up. The engines went along the approach path and about 3,000 feet down the runway. As you crossed the outer marker you would call the tower. They would throttle up the engines and warm up the air along the approach path. As you got near the runway they went to idle with the engines and the fog would lift just enough so you could land. It was a bit bumpy as you went through the disturbed air, but not too bad and it looked like you were flying into a tunnel. You could see the approach lights just fine, but you needed to land in the touchdown zone as the FDS ran out around 3,000 feet down the runway and it got very foggy fast.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #36 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 1:40am
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LOU wrote on Mar 19th, 2011 at 6:22pm:
...So, the French rigged up this cool system called FDS - fog dispersal system. Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up...

Lou


Hi LOU,

It seems the french FDS - Fog Dispersal System was an improvement of the old english system called Fog Investigation and Dispersal Operation (FIDO), also know as Fog Intense Dispersal Operation or Fog Intense Dispersal Of, the device developed by Arthur Hartley, as cited at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Investigation_and_Dispersal_Operation_%28FIDO%2...

Am I wrong?

Best regards,

Pinatubo.
  

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Reply #37 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:26pm
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Guys, I hope you don't fell offended when I say that I was looking at my watch when reading about
Quote:
Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up.

Couldn't believe it and was checking if the first of April has already arrived.

Such things existed? Looking at my monitor, very impressed and surprised.  Shocked
  
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Reply #38 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 3:10pm
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Pinatubo,

I never saw any demo of the British system, but it must have worked. The FDS system the French used was much later so it appears they had some time to improve the British idea outside of war. The jet engines were old and no longer serviceable for flight as I understood the contraption. As you can guess it cost a bunch of money if you had to divert to an alternate because of bad weather. The cost of putting up the passengers in a hotel and the loss of the return flight made FDS worth the cost to the airlines. For its time FDS did the trick, but soon the improvements in both ground based nav and cockpit instruments phased out this stopgap invention. I'm glad I saw it in operation. I never saw this system used in the USA.


More reading...

http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT3712542&id=AxY0AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&...

http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT4475927&id=3dE1AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&...

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976JApMe..15.1226W



  

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Reply #39 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 6:02pm
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So foggy days gave the residents some nice sounds too, am I right?  Cool
  
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Reply #40 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 7:47pm
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LFPG airport was placed out in the boondocks north of Paris. The location when it was built was mostly farm land and was very prone to fog especially ice fog in the winter. Now, the airport is surrounded on all sides with all kinds of buildings and industry. In the 60's and 70's jets were pretty loud, but the high by-pass fan engines of the newer planes and other sound abating tech has really kept the noise level down. Since the Concorde is no longer flying even the birds have regained their hearing.  Cheesy
  

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Reply #41 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:30am
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Oh, what I would give for just some more Concorde flights.  Undecided So sad that the real queen of the skies isn't in service anymore. I really miss her.
A Milestone of aviation history, I think that I'm a fan.  Embarrassed Yes, the 747 was too, but in a different way.
  
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Reply #42 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 4:06pm
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CoolP,

I know your are a fan of the SST, but here is a short story about why this beast was doomed from the beginning. Sure, getting across the pond in 3 hours was tres cool indeed, but at the cost of a small car, was it worth it?

One afternoon we were headed west across the Atlantic in our 2 engine 767, plodding along at M.78 when we received several frantic calls from SHANWICK (ocean control east of 30 degrees west) and GANDER control advising us of a Concorde making an emergency descent in our location due to an engine failure. Soon, we saw the beast as it descended to a lower altitude.

It turned out the Concorde had lost and engine at high altitude cruise and could not fly that high on 3 remaining engines. The plane also had to reduce speed and really started to suck up the fuel. They landed in Gander and there they sat until a rescue mission could be dispatched to pick up the passengers. So a three hour crossing turned into a multi-day voyage.



  

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Reply #43 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 5:55pm
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Sounds bad, indeed.

From reading the books and watching the videos (you are right, I'm a fan) I wouldn't have thought that she struggles that much on "3 out of 4".
Sure, the high flying supercruise is ended then and, if an airfield is in range, nobody would continue but land and check the problems, right?
Would a 747 continue to fly across the Pond when having lost 1 engine?

Concerning the ticket prices, there's a funny story around that they were actually raised after the airlines asked their passengers about them. They all guessed the wrong, much higher than current, price since their companies seemed to have done the booking.
The airlines then lifted the prices to the guesswork values.  Cheesy

Don't worry, I didn't expect much admiration towards the European Express here. I think, without doing it in an offensive way, that every pilot raises some sort of bias towards his most flown manufacturer.
The interesting things happen when they (are forced to?) change it, gaining the left seat experience in both (or more) worlds. What will they name as their favorite then?
All the stories and impression in between are full of those "needles", aiming to show which is the better one. Normal business in some way. Always funny and interesting reading from both sides.

All pilots of the Concorde transitioned of course, flying Boeing (many Captains in the later years came from the 747) or other planes before and even they seem to speak with a Tongue when they do their PA.


Since the aviation business is a highly political one (e. g., remember that, now, Boeing Air Force Tanker deal? Oh boy! Grin), those mentioned "needles" add the things to smile about while the political stuff stays something which doesn't always fit in the oh so nice public picture of friendship between countries.


Lou, I had some question in mind lately, concerning an emergency behaviour but it seems if lost it for now. Can't remember the situation.
But expect me to ask later.
  
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Reply #44 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 9:22pm
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CoolP, we were surprised as well that Concorde had such a problem loosing just one of the four engines, but I guess it could not keep up the supersonic speed and thus had to start down into the thicker air where it really burned up the fuel. As for the 707 or 747 shutting one engine down did not have the same impact. You could, depending on the circumstances, continue at a slower speed and go to your destination. Three engine planes had to divert, but the rule was nearest suitable airport which kinda means you can pick which airport you would like to land at but maybe not go all the way to your destination. Two engine planes have to land at the nearest airport.

Lou

P.S., sorry you are having a senior moment... it happens all the time here!  Sad
  

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Reply #45 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 9:55am
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A "senior moment", that's a good description.  Grin
Seems like it lasts, can't remember, but I will have some more questions, don't worry.

Lou, what routes did you fly back then, mainly, and what are you flying in the sim now?

We had a talk about those challenging approaches lately. Is the South American stuff, with the hot and high airports, something which attracts you in the sim?
Or are you doing some bush flying besides the heavy metal stuff?

You still wear the white shirt and a tie when you're on the yoke, don't you?  Cool
  
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Reply #46 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 3:05pm
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CoolP asked: Lou, what routes did you fly back then, mainly, and what are you flying in the sim now?

We had a talk about those challenging approaches lately. Is the South American stuff, with the hot and high airports, something which attracts you in the sim?
Or are you doing some bush flying besides the heavy metal stuff?

You still wear the white shirt and a tie when you're on the yoke, don't you?


I flew a mix of things, sometimes domestic, sometimes international. I always liked northern Italy in the Milan (MXP) area. If I had the money, that's where I would live, up on the lakes. I also enjoyed flying to the Caribbean. Another fun destination was Stockholm. When you fly in the high latitudes you often see the aurora, but sometimes going to this far north you are even north of the display itself. Very cool indeed.

The aurora remind you why GPS is a secondary nav system. Many times during the year a large solar flare would leave the sun and sometimes within hours the solar wind would impact the magnetosphere as a solar storm. We would actually get an emergency message from our dispatch to divert to a lower latitude to avoid the radiation from the solar particles. Also, the GPS system facing the sun would be impacted by a large storm and sometimes shut down many of the satellites for a period of time. That is why inertial is the primary system for commercial flight.

On the sim I fly all kinds of stuff. I enjoy landing on the carrier with the FA-18 in IMC, or sometimes flying an engine out approach in the CS-727, or with ORBX NA Blue and the A2A cub hopping around from field to field up in Washington state. The CS 707 is also fun to fly using the old doppler nav system and shooting an ILS in low weather into Paris or Berlin or a host of cities around the world. Then I start up the 757 a go out and shoot some auto lands, just like the old days!  Wink

My wife sometimes brings me a crew meal for those long flights!  Grin

No tie, no hat - please, I had enough of that thank you.  Cool

Lou
  

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Reply #47 - Mar 30th, 2011 at 1:03am
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You may have seen me refer to the 727 as a "Pig." This was because with the -7 engines it was not a stellar performer in climb. Over the years crew members named all the TWA 727's. The 727 in the Captain Sim model was plane number 7844 - The Star of Frankfurt, but it's real name was Pork Chop!

Naming the pig ships was a lot of fun and some of the names were pretty funny. Here is the list:

727-100 "Piglets"

7831 - Boeing Oink
7833 - Ham Tram
7839 - Piggy Sue
7840 - Sky Pig
7841 - Thunder Pig
7842 - Porky's Pride
7844 - Pork Chop
7845 - Warped Hog
7846 - Lil' Porky
7847 - Schwine Der Blitzen
7848 - Hog jaw
7849 - Lard Limo
7850 - Jimmy Dean
7851 - Short Snort
7852 - Queen of the Sty
7853 - Kitty Hog
7854 - Cloud Boarer
7855 - Slow Pork
7856 - Porcine Princess
7857 - Swine Flew
7859 - Gloria DeJavaline
7889 - Celestial Chitlin

727-200 "Pig Ships"

4301 - Porky's Flagship
4302 - Porky's Petunia
4303 - Hambone
4304 - Porc du Jour
4305 - Picnic Ham
4306 - Heavenly Hambone
4307 - Pigadilly
4308 - Duroc Delight
4309 - Sows About It
4310 - Squealor Pealor
4311 - Spring Chitlin
4312 - Lard Sakes
4313 - Kermit's Desire
4314 - Hampshire Humper
4315 - Hog Lander
4316 - Trough Aloft
4317 - Weiner Winger
4318 - Pigmalion
4319 - Aurora Boarialis
4320 - Lard Above
4321 - Heavenly Hog
4322 - Ham Sweet Ham
4323 - Petulent Porker
4324 - Gilty Lady
4325 - South Dakota Suey
4326 - Me-a-Farrow
4327 - Poland China Diner
4329 - Makin' Bacon
4330 - Short Lardage
4331 - Smokin' Porkin'
4332 - Porky's Palace
4333 - Pig o' my Heart
4334 - Truffle Hunter
4335 - Strato Swine
4336 - Fog Hog
4337 - Oklahoma Oinker
4338 - Pickled Pig's Fleet
4339 - Swine Star of Beirut (the last TWA 727 to be retired)
4340 - Bacon Bomber
4341 - Gloria Vandergilt
4342 - City of Smithfield
4343 - Boaring Soaring
4344 - Old Lang Swine
4345 - Pork Link Connected
4346 - Sue Oui
4347 - Road Hog
4348 - My Hammy Vice
4349 - Sty Stream
4350 - Sow Belly
4351 - Ozone Oinker
4352 - Ham Commander
4353 - Poland China Clipper
4354 - Millennium Wallflower
4355 - Porker Forker
4356 - San Juan Sow
4357 - Barbados Bristler


Here is the STAR of FRANKFORT a.k.a. Pork Chop at the gate in Tegel airport in Berlin in the French sector - circa 1987.

  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #48 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 1:47am
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Hey, Lou, just what plane are you standing next to in your profile picture?
  

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Reply #49 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 2:07am
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Looks like a 767. Yeah, those Boeing wipers aren't that great, both Lockheed and Douglas had seperate wipers for pilot/copilot instead og ganged for both.

The 767 is a nicer flying plane than the 757, as it has more control surfaces on its bigger wings, even though its heavier than a 757. My Dad says its one of the best planes he's ever flown. What's your take Lou?
  

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Reply #50 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 4:53am
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It's interesting that your dad says the 767 is a great plane to fly, because I've had the same experience with Captain Sim's 767. While I fly the 757 more because I think it looks nicer, something about the 767's flying dynamics makes it fun. It's kind of odd, though, considering the 767 was designed to be exactly (or extremely closely) like the 757 (which is great, because you only need one set of manuals). Wink
  

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Reply #51 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 5:34am
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So Lou,
In watching the Bruce Dickinson video's he seems to think a lot more highly of the 727 than the 707. As for power, flight characteristics etc.... did you like the 727 more than the 707.  You've made reference that the 727 wasn't you favorite plane to fly. Just wondering your take on comparing the two.
Also, speaking of the 707 specifically, what things did you like about and what things did you not like about it. From an aesthetic standpoint, the 707 is really a sweet looking plane anyway.
  
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Reply #52 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 1:18pm
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Yeah, they were designed together, with the 767 coming out before the 757, but they were entered into service together. The 767, although bigger, is a smoother flyig airplane because with those big wings, you've got a lot more control surfaces. My Dad says that the 757-300 is it bit sketchy though, as its the length of a 767-300 that he flies a lot but you're going faster than any other airliner before V1 and you can go more than 35 degrees in pitch without hitting the tail skid (which he hasn't done). However, funny my Dad's favorite plane is the 767 but its the only plane he's had with Delta thats had an engine failure.
  

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Reply #53 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 2:39pm
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Boeing247, I'm standing next to a 767-300. I liked the 757 a lot because you could get it into just about any field and it was a real performer.
  

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Reply #54 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 2:45pm
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BrianG, As for the 727 vs 707, they are so different it's hard to compare. I liked the 727 because it was a hot fast plane - although it was not a climber with the -7 engine. Some operators put larger engines on her and she was fine. The 707 was a sweet flying heavy plane (no boosted controls) whereas the 727 was fairly light on the controls since they were all boosted. The 727 in manual reversion was a dog. These two planes fly well, but I like the 727 for sport feel.  Smiley
  

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Reply #55 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 11:00pm
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You say it's the only plane he's had with an engine failure? Is the 767 prone to that?

Interesting bit of info. I wasn't aware that they were actually designed at the same time.
  

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Reply #56 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 11:12pm
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The engine had a disk fracture and a big fire, shut down on approach to Atlanta. The only other engine failures he's had are in the DC-3.

Yes, the 757 and 767 are designed together, and as close as two planes get that do such different things. As you know, they have similar cockpits, therefore share the same type rating, however the 767-400ER (the only -400 model by the way) has an all glass cockpit like the 747-400, and ONLy continental has gained FAA approval for combined ratings fro the 767-200/300 and 767-300, however Delta's 767-200s are retired. American still uses them though.
  

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Reply #57 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 11:14pm
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Just to note the DC-3 wasn't for Delta, in case you were wondering.
  

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Reply #58 - Mar 31st, 2011 at 11:17pm
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It's pretty cool that he flew the DC-3. What airline was it for?
  

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Reply #59 - Apr 1st, 2011 at 12:44am
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It was for some cargo airline that used to charter for FedEx called Airgo based in Dallas. Its callsign was Air Dallas. He's flown quite a few planes, but got there too late to even flight engineer on teh DC-8, or fly the L-1011. But he did fly the MD-11, 727, 737-200/300, 767, 757,  and DC-9 series (including MD-series). His favorite is the 767, but the 727was a nice flying plane as well. He says the 767 has dynamics much liek the Beechcraft Baron, much liek our family has.
  

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Reply #60 - Apr 1st, 2011 at 8:32pm
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Sorry for answering/relating to your answers so late, Lou. I was shooting at some CTD source of my installation and, finally, found it.
So I was busy in the skies and it seems like you are too when I look at your description of the sim "all day routine". Nice diversity indeed.
Those old planes from CS (the newer ones too, but not as much as the old ones) really caught me and I visit as many places as I can with them in the sim world.

Funny reading about the names (there are so many of them) for the 727 planes.
I agree with the impression from the other guys, seeing the 727 pilots enjoying their planes ("sporty", as you say) while the 707 people really had to work in them.
In the sim, the 707 is a brick and therefore creates some "work" feeling here, while the 727 is easy, fast and less "lazy" if you like.
But for the looks of the 707 alone, I must say I'm really addicted to her. Nice old&heavy feeling there, although, from modern standards, heavy doesn't fit anymore.

What do you think about the later Boeing stuff like the 777 for example? Must admit that she's my rw Boeing favourite and also shows some very innovative features.
Together with the huge engines (one of them has more thrust than the eight ones of the first B-52 series, impressive fact!) this forms a picture of a nice aircraft indeed.
Ok, it's fully of "sissy stuff".  Grin

Could imagine the old Captain Lou entering the cockpit, asking the guys around which of them is the "systems manager" in charge while stating himself as a real Captain.  Tongue
  
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Reply #61 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 12:40am
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Are any of those 727 still in service? Are any 727 at all still in service?
  

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Reply #62 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:07am
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CoolP, I was close to flying the 777, but my buddy who flies it says it's a SISSY plane. Even a poorly trained monkey could fly it!  Tongue

OK, it is a cool plane, but I have no idea how nice it flies except that my friend says it is very easy to fly and a good money maker. I would have liked to have been around to fly the 787, but it's gonna have to be a sim only plane for me!  Cry

Lou
  

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Reply #63 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:12am
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boeing 247,

There are 727 still flying around, not sure how many, but the fuel cost will decide how much longer. Also, since they tend to fly around in jungle climes, their maintenance costs go up as well.

Lou
  

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Reply #64 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:20am
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Are there any big commercial airlines still using them, or are they mostly private owners and such?
  

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Reply #65 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 2:12am
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Many are still used for VIP stuff, but most are used by cargo airlines.

LOU, you also didn't fly the 777 because TWA went away before they could have any, correct? Its fly-by-wire and the 787 will probably be programmed to fly a lot like it. I wouldn't call the world's largest twinjet a sissy, but it is easy to fly with fly-by-wire I'm told. The MD-11 lie emy dad flew was MUCH harder.
  

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Reply #66 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:02am
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boeing247 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:20am:
Are there any big commercial airlines still using them, or are they mostly private owners and such?

I think the private ownership is a rare thing there, but in passenger service, I can only imagine some South American companies for example.
Major US or European carriers don't use it because of the cost effect that Lou mentioned.
The cargo roles, as mentioned by the other guys, is a bigger one at Fedex and e. g. Heavylift. You will often find the cargo carriers to "suck up" all the older passenger jets, even the not so successful ones like the MD-11 or the DC-10 (which was ok in success, not overwhelming though).
The carriers often retrofit new, less noisy, engine stuff and some FMC-like equipment.
I think that the DC-10 for example "lost" its Flight Engineer when being modified to MD-11 standards (called MD-10 then), so they really invest some money there.

Seems like their cargo market isn't that sensible to "ticket prices" like the passenger thing where those three engine aircraft really limit your margin while you can't take advantage of the triple engine setup.
The MD-11 and the 727 (with the newer engines) should be nice on climbing out of shorter fields (compared to their size) with some heavy loads. Not a big pro for operating with passengers, they get heavier too, but are limited somehow.  Grin
As said, older planes transporting passengers are rare, but the cargo role lives very long. Might well be that some cargo 707 is still around. Passenger service was with Avianca for example, well after 2000.
But economic dependencies will also catch up on the major cargo carriers and, as far as I know, most of them already have orders on e. g. the 777F or the 747-8F. Airbus also tends to aim at this market with their A330-200F, replacing the A300F. So the modern planes also arrive there, at the companies being able to take the costs of buying them.

Quote:
I would have liked to have been around to fly the 787, but it's gonna have to be a sim only plane for me!

Don't worry, Lou, you have all the real classics on your list while the newer guys are just able to speak about different software versions on their planes.  Cheesy
Now's the time to drive this thing.
http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=2140

I'm really waiting for the 787 to arrive. A nice plane, innovative, new cockpit setup, tons of sissy equipment.  Cheesy
Don't know if it is able to speak to the pilots though. At least, they've got some widescreen entertainment suite there, that's for sure.
The high amount of carbon fiber structures also is a new item to be exited about. The were able to raise the differential pressure on the fuselage, offering a lower cabin alt when cruising, also more humid.
Bleedless engines are another innovative item. That's how they set up their new passenger money maker.
  
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Reply #67 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 12:56pm
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Hey Lou, my Dad's retired United friend who lives in Port Townsend and Texas (two extremes right?) was thinking about applying for a Boeing job. The job is for former airline pilots, and they are paid to go ferry the big jets places, and he was going to do this to fly the 787. If it interested you, you could do this.
  

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Reply #68 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 4:10pm
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Thanks everyone for the discussions. It make interesting reading for us "Sim" pilots only.  Back to my original question, in a real 707 or 727 would you ever find both doppler and INS. And if so, in what instances would you use one over the other? Would one just be a back up and one of those two be the primary nav system, say on trans oceanic flights where VOR is not available?
  
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Reply #69 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 5:57pm
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BrianG asked...

Back to my original question, in a real 707 or 727 would you ever find both doppler and INS. And if so, in what instances would you use one over the other? Would one just be a back up and one of those two be the primary nav system, say on trans oceanic flights where VOR is not available?


Brian,

Doppler was OK in its time, but even Loran C was sometimes better. I guess you could still find an old 707 with Doppler and a single INS and/or GPS installed. INS like the Delco Carousel were a big deal in the 70's. The IRS nav system using a ring laser was a lot better and less maintenance. Using the doppler shift of light, the ring laser had less moving parts and produced a more accurate track.

Some detail information on the IRS system...
http://www.biggles-software.com/software/757_tech/flight_management_navigation/i...

As for the question by pj747 - That sounds like too much work to me!  Wink  TWA never had the 777 on its list of planes. The 747 fleet was well established and the 767 fleet was slowly replacing the big bird. By the time AA bought TWA our fleet was pretty much all 2 engine both domestic and international. With MD-80 and commuters feeding the long haul stuff which were 767-200 and -300's.

It is a sissy plane compared to the old 707 and even the 747 where you need to know which foot to use if an engine fails. The 777 and most of the sissy planes put the rudder in for you... too much computer stuff in the flying department for me. Push a button marked START and the engine either starts or it tries again. What happened to all the careful watching of the start procedure? Too much like my Hybrid car.  Huh
  

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Reply #70 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:55pm
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Gladly American cancelled all their (TWA's) orders for the A320. My Dad doesn't like the TWA 757's that Delta has, as their MFD doesn't have radar overlays with selectable overlays.
  

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Reply #71 - Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:03am
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Thanks alot for the info Lou. Surprized to hear that Loran C was used on jetliners. I had a Loran C on my sailboat and may time found my old Bendix Radio Direction Finder was just as useful for Coastal Navigation.
So on ocean flights on 707's in the 60's and 70's was doppler suitable or did you use INS?
  
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Reply #72 - Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:20pm
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BiranG said:  Surprized to hear that Loran C was used on jetliners. I had a Loran C on my sailboat and may time found my old Bendix Radio Direction Finder was just as useful for Coastal Navigation.
So on ocean flights on 707's in the 60's and 70's was doppler suitable or did you use INS?


Brian,

I never used Loran C in the jet. I was just saying that sometimes Loran C worked better than Doppler. Loran A was questionable if there was any solar activity. If the sea was calm Doppler would loose the drift sense and go to DR, sometimes for long periods. None of the TWA 707 ever had INS. Doppler was primary with Loran A & Consolan and maybe some ADF in that order. The non flying pilot would do the navigation and they were busy checking on the Doppler by taking Loran A readings and God Forbid Consolan or ADF. It's one thing in a ship to use Loran or Consolan since you're only doing 15 knots, but at 500 kts the fix is a lot harder to do and any error is greater.  The spacing on the North Atlantic was 120 NM and 2,000 feet in altitude back then, so that reflected the accuracy of the navigation systems of that day. Now, with all the fancy IRS stuff the biggest problem is a fat finger hitting the wrong number on the computer keypad.  Shocked

Lou
  

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Reply #73 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 8:29am
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Quote:
Now, with all the fancy IRS stuff the biggest problem is a fat finger hitting the wrong number on the computer keypad.

You once again name it, Lou. Like mentioned in other threads around these forums, the situational awareness and the plan to "stay ahead of the plane" doesn't always succeed. And even the fancy glass cockpits are only as good as the guys looking at it.

Edited:
3.12      Buga, Colombia – B-757-200 –N651AA – 12/20/95

The Buga accident involved American Airlines flight 965, a Boeing B-757-200 turbofan on a regularly scheduled FAR Part 121 flight from Miami, FL to Cali, Colombia.  The aircraft impacted a ridge on San Jose Mountain, which rises above the town of Buga to 12,900’ MSL at its highest point, at approximately the 8960’ elevation, on a heading of 221o magnetic, while the aircraft was in approach configuration.   Impact was 30.4 NM from the Cali VOR facility.  Of the 167 persons aboard, only four passengers survived with serious injuries.  Weather in the accident vicinity was classified as dark night, VMC.

The Cali airport lies in the middle of a valley between two mountain ridges.  The crew of flight 965 were expecting to fly an ILS approach in which they overflew the field, circled back and landed on the northbound runway (designated 01).  However, because winds were calm, the Cali approach controller offered the crew the option of a “straight-in” approach to the opposite end of this runway (19):  “would you like the one-nine straight in?”  CVR transcripts show the first officer said to the captain: “yeah, we’ll have to scramble to get down (but) we can do it.”  The captain then replied to ATC:  “Yes sir, we’ll need a lower altitude right away, though.”  

The VOR/DME approach to Cali Runway 19 is a non-precision approach starting at the Tulua VOR facility, 43 NM from the Cali VOR at an altitude of 14,900’ MSL.  Beyond Tulua, aircraft follow a heading of 200o magnetic and descend to 5000’ MSL.  Following the contours of the valley, they then turn to a heading of 190o magnetic 21 NM from the VOR, maintaining a 5000’ MSL altitude until reaching a navigational fix 16 NM from the VOR.  At this point, they descend to the 3900’ MSL minimum descent altitude; the ROZO non-directional beacon (NDB) is the signal for aircraft to begin final approach.  

Because there was no terminal radar at Cali, ATC had to rely on pilot reports for information on aircraft position, and requested that flight 965 “report (passing) Tulua (VOR).”  The flight crew, after some initial confusion, realized that ROZO was the final approach fix, and asked ATC “can 965 go direct (to) ROZO and do the ROZO ONE arrival (procedure)?”  ATC replied “Affirmative,” but then reiterated “Report Tulua and 21 miles (the point at which the approach course turns), 5000 feet.” (25)

To slow their airspeed and increase their descent rate, the captain extended the aircraft’s speed brakes at this point, and tuned the flight management system to ROZO by entering an “R” on its keyboard.  Post-crash investigation shows the flight management computer responded with a list of the 12 nearest navigational facilities, ranked in order of distance from the aircraft, having call signs beginning with “R,” together with their latitude/longitude coordinates.  Unknown to the captain, this list did not contain ROZO; it was not entered as such in the flight management system’s memory.  Without bothering to verify its position, the captain selected the topmost facility on the list, assuming it was ROZO.  Unfortunately, it was the ROMEO NDB located in Bogota, 130 NM away. (26)

Once this selection was made, the aircraft began a sharp, 90o turn to the east, heading towards ROMEO.  It was just about this point that the aircraft passed over the Tulua VOR.  Because Tulua was no longer an active waypoint for the flight, it was not displayed on the flight management system, and the crew was unaware it had been crossed.  For reasons that are unclear, the crew did not notice the aircraft had veered sharply off course for about 45 seconds, and then took another 45 seconds to take appropriate corrective action.  All the while, the aircraft was descending.

Cali ATC, realizing the flight should have passed Tulua, but had not reported doing so, then asked “distance now?”  The captain responded “distance from Cali (VOR) is 38 (NM).”  Cali ATC acknowledged, but did not question the report.  Since Tulua is 43 NM from the VOR, it had clearly been passed.  Post-crash investigation showed the controller in question had command of the English language sufficient to engage in routine ATC exchanges, but apparently not enough to raise detailed questions to the crew of flight 965 regarding position and heading as they strayed off course. (27)

Over the next minute, the CVR shows the crew realizing they are heading away from Cali.  The captain says:  “Where are we?  Come right … go to Cali … we got (expletive) up here, didn’t we?”  The first officer then disengages the flight management system and initiates a manual turn to the right of approximately 90 degrees, the end result of which places the aircraft back on the initial approach course.  Unfortunately, the excursion off the approach course had taken the aircraft well beyond the confines of the valley containing the airport.  Still descending, N651AA was now dangerously close to the peaks on the east side of the valley.  Eventually, the aircraft’s GPWS begins to sound a “Terrain! Terrain!” alert, followed quickly by a “Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up!” warning.  The crew’s reaction was immediate and decisive; the nose was pitched up and maximum throttle applied.  But the speed brakes remained deployed, a factor which negatively affected the aircraft’s climb rate.  Eleven seconds after the initial alert, the aircraft impacted San Jose Mountain. (28)

N651AA was equipped with CVR, FDR and GPWS.  Table 13  presents altitude and elevation information for this accident.  This information is presented graphically in Figure 12.

from: Investigation of Controlled Flight into Terrain
U. S. Department Of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

The last highlighted part was done intentionally, to show that even some well trained crews may, when getting into stressful situations, profit from certain "laws" to apply, without their interaction because their minds are just full of a flashing "get out of here, now!" then, not recognizing some basic and (sadly) lethal circumstances.
The only clear mind on a plane with the (not test) “Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up!” sound active is the one in those little chips while all the others (at least partially) revert back to to an instinctive (and therefore not always logical) behaviour, while physical laws stay "logical" all the time.
That's my personal viewpoint, well described by this incident which started with "just" a too fast finger on the FMC. Not trying to play smart though.
  
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Reply #74 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:04pm
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CoolP, there is always a chain of events that lead up to the incident. If someone can break one of the links in the chain, then the incident may not happen. All the checks are in place, but they must be used. Case in point... one pilot is loading the FMC with a flight plan. It is established procedure that the other pilot check the information and that the second pilot execute the plan. This is to insure that there is a second set of eyes checking the input to the computer - very important. It is very easy to put in a course that is off by one degree. You are tired and it's dark and you miss the keys by one number... this could lead to something bad.

Another story. We used to do training in the real plane along with the simulator. Gas (Jet - A) was 13 cents a gallon, so it was sometimes easy to grab a plane and take 10 or 15 pilots and go to a quiet airport and shoot landings. (Pilots need 3 landings every 90 days to stay current in Part - 121- sometimes hard to do on long haul flights.)

So one bright morning, an instructor crew takes a 707 and a bunch of pilots from New York down to Atlantic City airport to do a bunch of landings. Several of the pilots also need a short check, also called a 6 month instrument check. They take off from JFK and head down to ACY - a short trip of maybe 15 minutes. Along the way they simulate an engine failure by pulling back an outboard engine. They commence to fly a 3 engine ILS under the hood to simulate an engine out approach in IMC. Remember, there is nothing wrong with this plane.

During the approach it is noticed that there is a slow leak in the hydraulic system that powers the rudder. The aircraft is down to 500 feet on the approach. Now because there IS a slight problem with fluid loss in the rudder system the instructor calls for the fluid loss checklist. (This is part of the chain of events.) The first thing on the fluid loss checklist is PUMPS OFF! The instructor tells the "student pilot" to go around. The pumps are turned, but the "student pilot" is not really in the loop since he thinks he is still flying a three engine approach. As the pilot pushes the throttles up for the go around the rudder pressure falls to zero. Rudder control is lost and the plane, which is now around 300 feet rolls over on its back and impacts the ground right in front of the tower. All are lost.

A sad story, true, but if someone had broken the chain of events it would not have happened. The instructor was too busy with his "simulation." There really was no big problem with the slow leak. Someone should have screamed JUST FLY THE PLANE! That's easy after the event, but during the flight it is sometimes hard to filter all the information and break one of the links in the chain.

It was very soon after this incident that all airlines stopped regular training in the real plane and switched to simulation. Hopefully, we learn from mistakes. We used to kid around saying... Do you know why PanAm is the most experienced airline??? Because they have the most experiences!  Shocked  Some times with black humor the point gets across.
  

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Reply #75 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 6:15pm
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Well now that Pan Am and TWA are gone forever, we've got the other big names like Continental and United together and Delta and Northwest together making two big airlines which now rule the American skies. Hopefully Southwest's 737 fleet gets grounded and they get massive fines for not properly aintaining their aircraft, which was totally unacceptable.

P.S everybody, you should try out McPhat Studios' repaints for the CaptainSim 757, they're HD and just magnificent.
http://www.mcphatstudios.net/
  

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Reply #76 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 8:04pm
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PJ747, I think it would be wise to wait for the investigation to finish before you make any personal attacks on Southwest wouldn't it?? Personally, I quite like them....There a bit different, you know??

Cheers,
nzaviationrules.
  
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Reply #77 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 8:20pm
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Perfect chain of event description there, Lou. Thanks for that interesting reading, although it sadly covers a loss of lives.

Can't think of any more worse circumstances when talking about plane crashes (except for terrorist attacks maybe): Telling the wife and the children the truth about the cause of this accident when they are asking about what lead to the crash.
"There actually wasn't anything wrong with the plane".  Undecided

Sadly, the reports of e. g. the NTSB are full of such things which gives the whole human factor thing in aviation some more importance in my eyes.
So the aircraft designers always have to fight at least two enemies. The malfunction of systems and the misinterpretation of circumstances and wrong prioritization by the human mind when being in stressful situations.

I know that you are talking about all that "sissy" stuff from time to time, but I don't doubt that the human factors issue gets underestimated from your side.
Do you remember when the training on those things started in the airlines?
For instance, there must have been a day when the TWA CEO announced that some "practical psychology" is now part of all crew training efforts, am I right?
  
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Reply #78 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:56pm
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A few years back they were fined $7.2 Million for not properly inspecting their aircraft. Southwest's problems aren't finished. I think the Feds will get them this time.
  

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Reply #79 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:50pm
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CoolP wrote: I know that you are talking about all that "sissy" stuff from time to time, but I don't doubt that the human factors issue gets underestimated from your side.
Do you remember when the training on those things started in the airlines?
For instance, there must have been a day when the TWA CEO announced that some "practical psychology" is now part of all crew training efforts, am I right?


You are so right. In the early days of flying the Captain was the final word in all things. This was really bad if the Captain would not take advice from a lower ranking crew member and with arrogance would kill everyone on the plane because good information was dismissed since the Captain is the Captain by God!

I remember from the first day of training at TWA one of the daily classes was called - SAFETY. It was sober look at past crashes and what causes could be understood from the incident, and then how to avoid them in the future. This class slowly morphed into a whole new way of looking at the command structure in the cockpit. The result was CRM - Cockpit Resource Management. This concept was adopted by almost all crew members and expanded to include the rest of the cabin team and indeed the whole team of dispatch and other parts of the airline structure. In a short time the rate of incidents and crashes started to decline - the effect was palpable.

Just last month I was on a cruise ship and was introduced to the Captain who gave me a tour of his operation. One of the things he told me was that even the last hold out of the "Captain has the last word" -world, now all ship Captains and crew also practice CRM.

Sad Shocked Huh Angry

On another posted subject by pj747... nzaviationrules is correct when he says it would be wise to wait for the investigation before dumping on one carrier. The fact is ALL the airlines have some closet doors, that if opened would reveal unsavory activity at some time. This is a time, IMHO to make haste slowly.


Lou
  

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Reply #80 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:58pm
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Hey Lou, did you only fly Boeing planes or did you fly the L-1011's or Douglas's as well?
  

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Reply #81 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:56am
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Thanks Lou-- It will be interesting to see if they (FAA) do find anything incriminating-- I hope not.... I also just see Air New Zealand are inspecting their 14 733's, which is a little closer to home. But I would hope this is mandatory if an incident like fatigue cracking happens to the same a/c type anywhere in the world. I also read it was an "unexpected area for this sort of damage to occur" as someone at Southwest said, anyhow.

A quick question for you Lou(if you have time to answer-you seem a popular guy here!!)- Have you ever flown into/out of New Zealand?? I am in flight training part time(school takes priority for now) and was interested in whether you might have flown here before-especially if it was into Christchurch!!

And to anybody who knows.. and to save me googling it.. Do Southwest outsource their maintenance??

Cheers,
nzaviationrules.  Smiley Smiley
  
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Reply #82 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:21pm
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I only flew Boeing planes in the airlines.

I have only flown to NZ in Flight Sim... on another note I did notice that NZ was raising their threat level from baaa to BAAA!  Grin

Don't know about the outsourcing of maintenance at SW, but most airlines have a portion of their work done outside by a contractor or other airline. This is not just a SW problem, it's just that they fly so many short cycle flights.

Lou
  

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Reply #83 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:45pm
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Isn't NZ the largest sheep place in the world?
  

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Reply #84 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:59pm
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The population (~4.4 million) of New Zealand is almost 1/10 of the amount (~40 million) of sheep.

This leads to LOTS of jokes regarding Kiwis (New Zealanders) and sheep.  Grin

Mark
  

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Reply #85 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 7:14pm
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I feel quite touched.... you two from America know we exist all the way down at the bottom of the world!!And yes PJ747 we are the sheep place.

And yes Mark, I have plenty of jokes about Aussie- I shall wait for the right moment to unleash them!! Smiley Smiley

Cheers,
Joe Grin Grin
  
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Reply #86 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:29pm
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I love those Foster's Commercials about how to speak Australian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwRLaEM0Gs&feature=related
  

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Reply #87 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 1:15am
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pj747 wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:29pm:
I love those Foster's Commercials about how to speak Australian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwRLaEM0Gs&feature=related

Nice advertisement. The only time I drink Fosters is when I'm overseas. Fosters "Light Ice" is the beer I drink when at home. Personally though, my favorite drink is Bundy and Coke (Bundaberg Rum with Coca-Cola). But my favorite rum is Tanduay, which costs about $0.75 - $1 a bottle, but it costs over $AUD1200 to go to where I buy it.

@nzaviationrules. You're so mean. Here I am, refraining from telling jokes about Kiwis, and you wanting to unleash jokes about Aussies. I only use them on about them with my English (born)/New Zealand (bred) mate who visits regularly.

Mark.
  

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Reply #88 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:30am
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This one is for Joe....

Two NZ guys are walking through the woods and come across this big deep
hole. "Wow...that looks deep."

"Sure does... toss a few pebbles in there and see how deep it is."

They pick up a few pebbles and throw them in and wait... no noise.

"Jeeez. That is REALLY deep... here.. throw one of these great big rocks
down there. Those should make a noise."

They pick up a couple football-sized rocks and toss them into the hole
and wait... and wait. Nothing.

They look at each other in amazement. One gets a determined look on his
face and says, "Hey...over here in the weeds, there's a
railroad tie. Help me carry it over here. When we toss THAT sucker in,
it's GOTTA make some noise."

The two men drag the heavy tie over to the hole and heave it in. Not a
sound comes from the hole.

Suddenly, out of the nearby woods, a sheep appears, running like the
wind. It rushes toward the two men, then right past them,
running as fast as it's legs will carry it. Suddenly it leaps in the air
and into the hole.

The two men are astonished with what they've just seen...
Then, out of the woods comes a farmer who spots the men and ambles over.

Hey... you two guys seen my sheep out here?

You bet we did! Craziest thing I ever seen! It came running like crazy
and just jumped into this hole!

Nah, says the farmer, That couldn't have been MY sheep. My sheep was
chained to a railroad tie.
Grin
  

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Reply #89 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:41am
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That is actually alot more in depth of a joke Lou than I have ever heard about NZers and sheep before-usually it's just "sheep shaggers!!" and the cackle of an Australian laugh-- Sorry Mark, but aussies and kiwis just like to think we hate each other. Where did you get that joke from btw Lou??
  
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Reply #90 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:54am
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"sheep shaggers!!"and the cackle of an Australian laugh

* Markoz is ROFLMAO  Grin Grin Grin Cheesy
  

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Reply #91 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 5:05am
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Hehe glad to see you like it Mark Wink Wink I have learnt to laugh at my own expense hahahaha!! Grin Grin
  
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Reply #92 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 5:28pm
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An Australian ventriloquist visiting New Zealand, walks into a small village and sees a local sitting on his porch patting his dog. He figures he'll have a little fun.

Ventriloquist: "G'day Mate! Good looking dog, mind if I speak to him?"
Villager: "The dog doesn't talk, you stupid Aussie."
Ventriloquist: "Hello dog, how's it going mate?"
Dog: "Doin' all right"
Villager: (look of extreme shock)
Ventriloquist: "Is this villager your owner?" (pointing at the villager)
Dog: "Yep"
Ventriloquist: "How does he treat you?"
Dog: "Real good. He walks me twice a day, feeds me great food and takes me to the lake once a week to play."
Villager: (look of utter disbelief)

Ventriloquist: "Mind if I talk to your horse?"
Villager: "Uh, the horse doesn't talk either....I think."
Ventriloquist: "Hey horse, how's it going?"
Horse: "Cool"
Villager: (absolutely dumbfounded)
Ventriloquist: "Is this your owner?" (pointing at the villager)
Horse: "Yep"
Ventriloquist: "How does he treat you?"
Horse: "Pretty good, thanks for asking. He rides me regularly, brushes me down often and keeps me in the barn to protect me from the elements."
Villager: (total look of amazement)

Ventriloquist: "Mind if I talk to your sheep?"
Villager: "The sheep's a liar" Shocked

Joe, my neighbor is a NZ boy from Christchurch, and he tells me plenty! We both like single malt and a good cigar!  Cool
  

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Reply #93 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 5:41pm
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That was quite funny. Try memorizing that!
  

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Reply #94 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:12pm
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I did!  Tongue
  

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Reply #95 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 7:15pm
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Well then. Okay, I've got a puzzler for you all! Now what one feature does the 767 differ from the 757 and all other Boeing jets that can cause a major problem after total battery failure?
  

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Reply #96 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 4:18am
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And you watch your mouth man Wink Wink Making Aussies sound smart, oooh boy!! Grin Grin I will tell you when I am old enough for a cigar too btw!! Although a Speights would be more kiwi Cool Cool!!

And PJ747, no contest. Lou, after 40 years on Boeing's would probably know that I would imagine Grin Grin??

Wink
Joe Smiley Smiley Smiley
  
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Reply #97 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 4:51am
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I'm just going to take a wild guess at pj747's puzzler... does it have anything to do with the air demand column on the hydraulics panel? That's not there on the 757...

As I've said before, I'm no expert on aircraft systems, so I wouldn't really know if that would do anything...  Wink
  

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Reply #98 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:08pm
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Not quite boeing247.

P.S, Lou give others a chance!!
  

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Reply #99 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:30pm
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Wrong again!
  

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Reply #100 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 2:09pm
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nope. Anyone else?
  

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Reply #101 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 8:41pm
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NEVER pass up a good airport.

This is another sad story about flying past a good airport just to go back where you took off from.

PanAm had a 707 freighter that took off from JFK headed east to Europe. Some where off the Canadian coast, smoke was noticed. The Captain decided to turn around and go back to JFK. The smoke got worse and worse. The plane crashed into the ocean just short of Boston.

Another sad one was the Swiss Air MD-11 out of JFK. Just abeam Halifax, CA the entertainment system gets to burning. Instead of landing RIGHT NOW in Halifax, the crew decides to start a very lengthly fire & smoke checklist. The hull loss was preventable if they did not delay getting it on the ground!  Cry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Crashed 747F returned to Dubai despite Doha being closer

Pilots of a UPS Boeing 747-400 freighter which caught fire and crashed while
attempting to return to Dubai had been offered Doha International Airport,
some 50nm nearer.

The crew received a fire warning shortly after crossing the BALUS into
Bahraini airspace, just below 32,000ft, en route to Cologne on 3 September
last year.

United Arab Emirates General Civil Aviation Authority investigators state
that the crew informed Bahraini air traffic control that "they needed to
land as soon as possible".

The GCAA adds that the pilots were advised that Doha was 100nm distant, on a
left-hand bearing.

"[Doha] was the nearest airport at the time the emergency was declared," it
states, adding that Dubai was 148nm away and required turning the aircraft
around.

"The captain elected to return to [Dubai] and, following the request to land
as soon as possible to [Bahrain controllers], the crew declared an
emergency."

In order to turn the 747 back to Dubai, the GCAA says, controllers cleared
it for a series of right-hand heading changes. The distance to Dubai,
including the turns and straight-line return sector, amounted to about
150nm.

Although the crippled aircraft managed to reach Dubai, despite smoke in the
cockpit and deterioration in control capability, the jet was unable to carry
out a stable approach to the airport and crashed south of the city.

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
  

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Reply #102 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 12:50am
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Wow. What were those pilots thinking? I wonder what their reasoning was...  Sad
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #103 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 6:37am
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boeing247 wrote on Apr 9th, 2011 at 12:50am:
Wow. What were those pilots thinking? I wonder what their reasoning was...  Sad

Probably, I suspect, because they were more familiar with Dubai airport than they were with Doha airport. Sad
  

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Reply #104 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 1:02pm
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boeing247 wrote on Apr 9th, 2011 at 12:50am:
Wow. What were those pilots thinking? I wonder what their reasoning was...  Sad

I think that's the right question there.

Just from memory and after reading quite some reports and transcripts about incidents of all kinds.

Must be moisture or something.
(Sensor warning about an unlocked reverser while at cruise alt and speed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004 - plane was lost

We can handle this, it's just some smoke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111 - plane was lost

Must be some computer error, lets continue.
(fuel pressure warning coming up)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider - plane had to land as a glider

Must be some computer error, lets continue.
(EICAS message about first, imbalance, second, too low overall fuel load)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236 - also a glider landing

Lets join the "410 Club".
(CRJ-200 displaying various warnings, mostly engine related, while the pilots forced it to climb to its certified ceiling) - plane was lost
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701

So, in my eyes, the pilots which feel (too) confident about themselves, because they went through this and that in the past, tend to judge some situations, having their wealth of experience in mind. So they might not rely on indications and warnings given.

There are quite some psychology based discussions around that a young and not so experienced FO would have judged the whole thing differently, because he wouldn't have been that confident about his skills but would have trusted the systems some more.
Now, playing fair, there will be quite some situations where the Captain's experience is the big plus in the cockpit of course. But, usually, those are not the ones where you have to judge about a system and it's indicated status (you can't say, from experience, if a sensor catches up moisture or not, unless it does this on every second flight or so).
The Captain's experience e. g. might be a big help when judging about external circumstances (e. g. weather) or actually flying the thing with "stick and rudder". Also, the experienced guy doesn't get upset when things start to develop some stress factor, he had this stress some time before while the FO might get distracted by the new influences.
So, as you see, the modern systems all need some clear mind in the cockpit since they don't fly the plane and don't take any responsibility from the pilots. They just show, indicate and suggest things, helping the guys in the cockpit.
So it still stays some fine tuned balance to make the right decisions, just like in the old days without fancy displays. Sometimes people fail to achieve this balance, see some of the outcome above.

My personal viewpoint stays that the whole human factor thing got its emphasized character for good reason.
An engineer can always tune systems, check sensors and make sure that everything is working well above 99%, but if those two guys in the cockpit have a bad hair day  Grin things start to get worse while the plane itself might only struggle from minor defects.
Sadly, the whole situation then can turn out to be one were nobody steps out the plane and thinks "I'll do it in another way, next time".  Undecided

So your question about the decision making (e. g. do we land immediately or do we take the longer runway, being some miles out?) is spot on the cause of many problems in the actual operation.

Coming back to Lou's experience.
Did you ever had one of those "did not cross the line, but I could see it very clearly" situations in your career? Maybe some where you got years older in just some seconds?
Could have developed because of external influences or by, maybe, a bad decision which then had to be carried out.

Just asking, because after reading and seeing some interviews from crews which where close to some sort of lethal incident, most of them reported to have been on the very limit of mental and physical stress while fighting the plane through some emergency conditions.
So there was not a single one stating himself as a hero, but as a lucky guy, in the end.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #105 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 3:28pm
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CoolP, Short of loosing a wing, there is nothing worse than a fire in the plane, because you really don't know what you have. With a passenger flight you have extra firefighters in the flight attendants, but the two pilots in the cargo plane have no idea what is causing the smoke, and have little or no way to get to the area of the fire to put it out.

One flight a while back had a small fire in the cabin which the F/A's were able to handle very quickly. The source of the fire was a ladies hand bag. In flight, the woman replaced a 9 volt battery in some electronic device. She threw the "old" battery in her hand bag and placed the bag under her seat. The battery came in contact with a coin and shorted out. It had enough life to get very hot and start a small fire in the bag. Thank's to the quick work of the cabin team the fire was put out and the flight pressed on.

There was a MD-80 flying from some southern city in the US to the north. Someone went into the lav and smoked. They tossed the butt in the waste bin where is started to smolder. In a very short time the bin was fully involved and smoke filled the plane. Even though the cabin team tried to fight the fire, the pilot decided to make and emergency descent and land in KCVG. That was a life saving decision because the fire was still going strong and only by landing is a very short time was everybody able to survive. Remember, only the pilots have limited smoke protection with their mask and goggles. The passenger O2 mask is only a very small amount of oxygen mixed with ambient air - no help in smoke conditions.

Who knows why two well trained pilots passed by a place to land and continued to a distant airport? Maybe it was that they were more familiar with the departure airport, or maybe they wanted to go where company personal could assist, we will never know.

CoolP asked for another story...

One fine morning in LIMC, we were getting ready to fly our flight back to KJFK with a full load of people. We observed the inbound flight land and taxi to the gate and noticed the left engine reverser on this 767-200 still opened. Since the 767 reverser is operated by hydraulics the pilots don't try to force it back as we did with the 707, 727 air driven reverser. As the people were unloading, the mechanics opened the left cowl to see what the problem could be. The cowl on the 767 is pretty big and uses hydraulic power to open and close. After messing around for a while they decided they could not fix the problem in MXP, so the stowed & pinned the reverser and closed the cowl. In the cockpit, the left reverser was wired in the stowed position and the log book entry made to dispatch the plane with the left engine reverser inop.

The plane took off at max takeoff weight and climbed out of the airport. I was flying and if you are familiar with MXP (Milan), you know that the Alps are just a short distance to the north of the airport. If you cannot climb to a certain altitude by the NDB, you will need to circle to gain altitude before you can begin to cross the Alps and head northwest. After a turn in the pattern, we proceeded toward our ocean crossing. Eight hours later we are nearing our destination and begin the descent. We are just passing abeam Boston on the approach to KJFK and are advised by JKF approach to keep up our speed as we are number one in the sequence for east arrivals.

This works for us since we all had a commuter flight or long car ride ahead, so early is good! As we descended down to FL-240 a small light on the center console flickered on. The light was REV ISOL. It just flickered once or twice and no EICAS message appeared. We both looked at each other with the same look... what's that mean? I opened the flight handbook and found one small sentence that said this light shows that hydraulic pressure is being applied to keep the reverser closed. While we were trying to digest this information, the REV amber light above the engine instruments lit up. A few seconds passed and the plane lurched and a loud bang was heard. I grabbed the controls, and very slowly eased the left throttle closed. There is a knock on the cockpit door. It is the second co-pilot who was seated in the cabin. His face was very telling. He said, "it's gone! The cowling is gone!" Don't forget we were leading the pack into KJFK doing just about barber pole. Pretty exciting! As we looked around the instruments we could not see anything amiss. The engine was running just fine. There was no fluid loss, or control problem, but a very large piece of our 767 was somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean.

ATC asked if we slowed down, and we told him about our adventure and asked to set up for a low pass at KJFK so the mechanics could look the plane over before we moved the flaps or gear. We were vectored to a make a pass over runway 22R at KJFK since the landing runway was 13L/R. We descended to 300 feet and slowed to just above no flap speed. The ground folks looked at us through binoculars and said they observed what looked like some parts missing on the underside of the left inboard wing. We decided all we really needed to land was the gear, so we slowly started a climb back to traffic pattern altitude and lowered the wheels. Normal extension!  Smiley Now we tried the first notch of flaps. Also normal, no control problems and no fluid loss. We used normal flaps for landing and I made one of my better slick jobs and greased it on!  Tongue

The mechanics were waiting for us as we turned off the runway. We shut down the left engine and awaited their report. When he returned to the headset he reported extensive damage to the left wing leading edge and underside parts of the wing. Two large flap track canoes were missing along with the engine cowl. I ask him if he wanted to tow us into the gate and he said..."you flew if #%&*# in you can darn well taxi it the rest of the way.  Shocked

Now, what I did not tell you was my announcement to the passengers right after the event. I don't lie to the passengers - ever! If we are flying around thunderstorms, that's what I call them, not rain showers. So I told the folks what had happened and what we intended to do - like the low pass etc,. I can tell you every person listened to my every word during that announcement.

Epilogue: MXP said they pinned the reverser... I wonder! The cowling was not closed - all the way. As we made our descent into the N. Y. we were asked to keep up our speed. Some how through vibration, air pressure, who knows - the reverser section wanted to move back. The REV ISOL (reverser isolation) gizmo tried to do its thing. As soon as that cowl moved just a hair, the air caught it and it was bye bye cowl. If the cowl had departed the aircraft over the wing, some one else would be doing these stories on the forum. The cowl ripped off and went under the wing missing the tail, but destroying the large leading edge device and big flap covers. The plane flew just fine.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #106 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:22pm
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Lucky you, Lou. This reverser happening lead to the crash of that Lauda Air 767 (see link above), so I'm really glad that you are actually able to tell your story, instead of "some one else would be doing these stories on the forum" as you've named it.

Another engine here and there's quite some cowling left, but it still remains a disturbing picture, doesn't it?

Nice story, Lou. And yes, LIMC is an interesting and beautiful location.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #107 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 7:39pm
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Wow. Close one.  Shocked

Hey, Lou, have you ever heard of the book "Vectors to Spare"? It's kind of the reverse of your stories, it's the stories of an Air Traffic Controller (Though most of his stories are about Toledo Express, so there's not a lot on big airliners). You might like it.
  

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Reply #108 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 8:53pm
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Thanks, I'll check it out!
  

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Reply #109 - Apr 9th, 2011 at 9:21pm
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Time to answer the puzzler by pj747...

Now what one feature does the 767 differ from the 757 and all other Boeing jets that can cause a major problem after total battery failure?


If you lose all generators, then run the battery out in the 767, you will not be able to lower the gear. I'm guessing this is the difference you are referring to.

The reason is because you will lose both electric hydraulic pumps on the center hydraulic system, which powers the gear.

When the battery runs out, you will lose the air driven pump on the center system because the air driven pump valve requires 28v DC to remain open.

You have now lost the entire center hydraulic system and you can't lower the gear normally.

The alternate gear extension uses a 28v DC motor to mechanically unlock the gear. If you have no 28v DC, that option disappears also.

More reading:
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/plane/boeing/b767/instructor/B767_Electric...




  

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Reply #110 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 4:43pm
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AF 380 April 11 JFK... Wow!  That must have gotten their attention on the jungle jet.


This plane is a hazard at most airports.

Collision hier soir à JFK AF A380 avec un autre avion sur le tarmac.

Yesterday April 11 the A380 at JFK  AirFrance collided a plane on the tarmac

http://www.20min.ch/ro/videotv/?vid=200282
  

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Reply #111 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 9:02pm
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Wow, thanks Lou for all the stories!  I love the 707 and 727 myself and went as far as building a 707 cockpit.  It was tough finding the parts, but I was able to track an old 707-323CC down and took that one (except the Webber seats of course).  I have enough parts to convert it to a 727-100 or 200 (have the glaresheilds and newer yokes for the -200).  I'm almost there in parts for the 737-200...lots of modifications for that one.  I have alot of work to do, but my buddy is almost done with his 707-331B (TWA) and I can't wait to fly it.  We're both going to use the Captain Sim 707 for the flight model.  We both had an opportunity to fly the level B 707 sim down here in Miami...and the Captain Sim felt just like it.  It was a couple years back but I think we set the EPRs to 1.8 and it rotated itself!  It was a heavy airplane, but a Cadillac and really nice airplane to fly (if the sim is anywhere like the real thing.

  

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Reply #112 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:37pm
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I found the official NTSB report on this:

************************************************************
                      NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************************

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594


April 12, 2011

************************************************************

NTSB INVESTIGATING WING CLIPPING INCIDENT AT JFK AIRPORT


************************************************************

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating a
wing tip clipping that occurred between an Airbus A380 (F-
HPJD) and a Bombardier CRJ-700 (N641CA) at John F. Kennedy
Airport in New York last night.

On April 11, 2011 at 8:25 PM EDT, preliminary reports
indicate that the left wing tip of Air France flight 7
struck the left horizontal stabilizer of Comair flight 293
while the Comair airplane was taxiing to its gate.  There
were 485 passengers and 25 crew onboard the Airbus and 52
passengers and 4 crew onboard the CRJ.  No injuries were
reported on either aircraft.  

The NTSB has requested the fight recorders (cockpit voice
recorder and flight data recorder) from both aircraft and
will review the content of those devices as part of the
investigation.  Also, the NTSB will review the air traffic
control tapes and ground movement radar data (ASDE-X). The
damage sustained to both aircraft is still being assessed.  

Parties to this investigation include the Federal Aviation
Administration, Comair, and the Air Line Pilots Association.
Also, accredited representatives from the French Bureau
d'Enquetes et d'Analyses (BEA), the Transportation Safety
Board of Canada (TSB), and their advisors from Airbus, Air
France, and Bombardier Aerospace, are assisting the
investigation.

The NTSB will release more information as it becomes
available.  

Media Contact:  Keith Holloway, 202-314-6100
hollow@ntsb.gov  
**********************************************************

That A380 is ugly and dangerous...
  

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Reply #113 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 1:48am
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boeing727223, Very cool indeed. Keep it a 707!  Cool

Lou
  

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Reply #114 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 1:53am
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What was the A-380 pilot looking at that he did not see that other plane.
I don't know if the video was at 30 FPS or not , but it looked like he was booking.
Hard to believe that no one on the commuter was not hurt with that kind of impact. It lifted the right wing off the ground.

This plane is just too big for old airports. Not enough space to taxi side by side.  Sad

Lou
  

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Reply #115 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:16am
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In my opinion it wasn't a simple incident but a real accident.

Yes, the Comair's passengers were very lucky.

The video resolution isn't pretty good, but gives us an idea of the accident. Shocked

  

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Reply #116 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:34am
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They apparently impounded the A380 for the incident...
  

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Reply #117 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:20am
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Oh, my God! It knocked the CRJ aside like a toy! The A380 could become a hazard. Imagine if one plowed forward into something like a little commuter Embraer prop plane or something!

It's kind of like the 707 when it first came out. Many airports just aren't big enough for it.

Oh, I found this while looking up the weight of the A380: this is just sad...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_weight_of_Boing_A380
  

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Reply #118 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 6:52am
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boeing247 wrote on Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:20am:
Oh, my God! It knocked the CRJ aside like a toy!

Well, compared to the A380, most planes are toys.  Grin As long as you don't come in with a mighty Antonov 225 or something.

Guys, you were looking at some ground based incident which could arise from many things including the AF pilots not looking at their screens (cameras), taxing too fast and "confident" and the small plane not parking at the right spot, just to name a few. Are we at the stage of knowing the actuall cause yet? Really?
The A380, just like the new 747-8, fills the 80m-Box in full, so we're talking about a "known big thing" there since this box is the planning value for all major airports since the big planes were announced. Since this thing happened at KJFK, we are not talking about a small or unprepared (for the A380) field, if anybody is in doubt.

While maybe DC-10 eat up baggage carts or 747s lose their cargo doors in flight, the A380 is big. Did anybody doubt that?
Now, if you taxi big things, you have to watch closely. Is that new to anyone around?

Quote:
The A380 could become a hazard. Imagine if one plowed forward into something like a little commuter Embraer prop plane or something!

You are right, all other planes are no hazard to smaller ones, not at all.  Roll Eyes C'mon.
Ever looked at an SUV going into some Prius? That's what I call a actual hazard, happening far more often than the impact of one big size plane into another. Just saying.
And, as said, a B1900 for example won't be too happy with a "small" 767 too, if this ever happens.
You may want to look up the incident databases for the current numbers of such things. Is there any number at all?
Since planes are too big for any impact-countermeasures nowadays, the focus is on avoiding the impact itself.
There was a guy some time ago, demanding planes to be able to take inflight! impacts from by another plane and still being able to fly. I think that the whole leading engineers (so US, European, Brazilian and so on) were listening and later asking, what this guy thinks how those tanks would look and fly like, while not actually getting hit by other planes (should be 99.99999999+% of operation time).
He remained silent since then.  Grin


I really doubt that the regional Jet there would have been "kissed away" if e. g. "just" a B747 had taken over his T-Tail while not being taxied the right way. So the actual hazard arises from the wrong operation of things, not from their size, which is a known fact (unlike the numerous things which might distract pilots in the cockpit, leading to strange ways of taxiing and/or parking).
The first impression outcome for me is that the addition of wrong parking and not right taxiing leads to an impact like this.
I don't think that they will start building folding wings A380 now, but you never know.  Cheesy
Maybe the advertisement jumps on this, stating "you want to be in an Airbus when this happens!"  Grin

Boeing had a folding wing option on the first 777, but it was never ordered so they left it out.
  
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Reply #119 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 7:20am
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boeing727223, so this picture shows your homebased installation?
Well, count me in as one of the jealous guys now. Impressive thing there. I have to show this to my girlfriend, she will call you insane while I will admire you for the time being.  Cheesy
  
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Reply #120 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:46pm
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Lou, thanks, I think I might just do that!  To convert the 707 to a 727 would require me to rip everything out and put in new MIP, glaresheild, yokes, rudder pedals (707 are cast iron non grid type), overhead panel, P7 circuit breaker panel (replace with 727 blank panel), replace all circuit breaker panels in the back left wall and ceiling (put in the 727 left side circuit breaker panels), put in the 727 rear wall circuit breaker panels, replace the old 707 yokes with newer 727/737 yokes (unless I built the 727-100), replace the webber straight rail seats with 727 seats (unless I built a 727-100), throttle quadrant change, and last but absolutely not least....727 flight engineer panel!  Hey, I can keep the seat balls!!  Yeah!!   Grin


CoolP - Hey, thanks man, my wife had the same reaction....she has absolutely 0 interest..all she knows is the early Boeing aircraft had "eyebrow" windows....she's lost when she see's the new NG's without them!    Cheesy

And of course my cousin thinks I should open a strip club and call it..."The cockpit"....see what I have to deal with??  Shocked
  
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Reply #121 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 3:26pm
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CoolP, just a comment on the A-380 event at JFK,

FWIW

JFK is an old airport. The inner and outer ring are too close to accommodate this big boy. Even the 747 is tight. I'm sure there are special rules that the ground control folks use to move this fat boy around the airport. The bottom line is the A-380 hit the commuter. The pilot in the A-380 is at fault even if the controller told him to taxi. Even if the commuter plane did not taxi far enough into the ramp, the A-380 pilot needs to avoid hitting the other plane. That is just basic rules of the "road." It's hard to tell from the video just how fast the airbus was going, but the fact that the RJ was spun around with such violence that the right wing actually moves up, leads me to believe it was a hard hit.

I remember flying the 747, and one of the hardest things was night taxi in the rain. The landing and taxi lights were poor in illuminating the taxi ways and I found it the hardest plane to taxi in those conditions since you were so high off the ground. When these conditions exist, one should go very slow and make sure all crew's eyes are paying attention out the window.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary....  Roll Eyes

Lou
  

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Reply #122 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:20pm
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Lou, I don't doubt your personal mileage. I was just jumping on that "Airbus is dangerous" bias from some of the frequent Boeing Press Room readers (which I am too since the 747-8 is an interesting plane for example, but I don't get my "truth" delivered from there  Grin). Just before it really starts, I had to say some words, that's all.

I absolutely agree to the statement of yours, that the pilot of the big whale will have to take responsibility there. How much this will be and also how many other influences might have lead to this incident can't be judged be anyone of us. We both will agree there.
I think that even a hot blooded AF pilot will be of some careful character when taxing that big airliner.
Maybe he was used to the "smaller" 747-400 though (since AF drives a fleet of them too).  Tongue


I once read an interview from an Airbus official in the very early days of the A380 program. He said that they had planned for everything and, so far, experienced everything, but they never ever anticipated the negative emotions towards their product from the US side and all those little things which can be driven by those.
He states that it must be really hard for some people over there that another (and not US) company now builds bigger planes than they do.
Now, while the good engineers respect the work of others while still loving their baby of course, he seemed to describe some other emotions there and I think that some Boeing-bias around here shows what he meant to say.

After watching the very interesting and still not finished investigations towards that blown engine on the Qantas A380, this smaller incident is just another opportunity to catch some feelings there.
Some lose their objective way of arguing and start to get emotional, mostly coinciding with some kind of "truth" and "obvious facts" which have to be declared as such, because otherwise nobody would recognize them.  Cheesy
Currently, all things said about this JFK thingy will be assumptions of course, and remain for a while I think.
The only fact that I'm aware of is that this small incident will surely add fuel to the flames, because every money business is a dirty one and the aviation industry is the place where big, big money is made.
So, lets enjoy the show, the findings and the large variety truths out there.
  
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Reply #123 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:26pm
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CoolP - Hey, thanks man, my wife had the same reaction....she has absolutely 0 interest..all she knows is the early Boeing aircraft had "eyebrow" windows....she's lost when she see's the new NG's without them!    Cheesy

And of course my cousin thinks I should open a strip club and call it..."The cockpit"....see what I have to deal with??  Shocked

Sounds like fun, that suggestion from your cousin.  Cheesy

Ah, the wives and the hobbies of their husbands. A never ending story, huh?
As long as both can run their thing and still find themselves to have the same interest on some other things, everything is fine.
I'm running the most boring hobby on the whole planet she says. She said this to my sports before (can't always take her with me there), so I'm ok.
Sometimes she listens to some online flights and says that this sounds "very professional". I don't really know if she is joking there, but I hope not.  Undecided  Cool
  
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Reply #124 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 6:37pm
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CoolP and all the rest...

I am not attacking Airbus, or any of their fleet. Lord knows Boeing has its own problems. My only statement is that the A-380 is too big for these out of date airports like JFK or any other of the worlds old airports. That said, I prefer the Boeing logic to the Airbus, but that is just the pilot in me.  Tongue
  

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Reply #125 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 7:41pm
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I did not gain the impression that you are attacking any company around, Lou. Must have been a misunderstanding there.
I see your posts as informative, interesting and, of course, with the inclusion of your opinion. Nothing wrong there and far away from transporting any blind bias of some kind.
That blind bias aspect was and still is pointed at some other people, not you.

But regarding the too big statement of yours. What's the problem when the aircraft manufactures, airlines and also the authorities define that mentioned 80m-box and all agree about the provisions to be made then?
If JFK doesn't fulfil the needs there, all upcoming planes will struggle too. And, if the current ones already do, who's to blame then? The plane or the airport guys stating "it will fit" while letting the pilots run into maybe too narrow taxiways?
Now, from the situation in the video, I think that the margin for errors gets smaller with bigger planes, but hey, that's the same thing which happened in the 707 days and later on the 747 ones.
But I don't think that the taxiways at JFK missed the pre-"fit A380 check", so there will surely be some more influences when such things happen, don't you think? Otherwise it would have happened sooner since the A380s of this world already land, taxi and later start at JFK since quite some time now.

What about some cliché? French pilots with too much champagne?  Grin
  
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Reply #126 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 7:44pm
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Hey CoolP, I hear ya!!  I've had a serious love affair with these airplanes since 'bout 1972 when I was about 3....but I also had plans of making a full scale replica of a 727 out of plywood so my wife shouldn't complain!!   Cheesy

I've since dropped the idea of making a plywood object that is 153'2" by 108' by 34'....maybe a 737??  J/K!
  
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Reply #127 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 8:42pm
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Just imagined my girlfriend while I'm telling her that I plan to build a full scale thing.
She's running, collecting her clothes and some money while calling the police because some insane guy entered her room.  Grin

But for real, I'm still jealous about that cockpit installation of yours.
  
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Reply #128 - Apr 14th, 2011 at 12:17am
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The funny thing about it is I was showing my wife all the parts and when I came across the CVR she said good because they'll need to play that back after I kill you for putting that thing in my house!!   Grin
  
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Reply #129 - Apr 14th, 2011 at 2:07am
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You even have a CVR?  Shocked
Man, I think that even Lou will get jealous about your installation when it's running.  Smiley

I saw some homebuilder threads in other forums were they describe the progress of their installations on a weekly or monthly basis. Very interesting and most, if not all, finished things are amazing then.
Maybe you can do something like this when building your stuff around the CS planes.
  
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Reply #130 - Apr 14th, 2011 at 2:33am
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Hey, CoolP. You're right about the A380, it's about the operation, not the plane itself. My point was more that if something does go wrong, the A380 is going to have more inertia behind it than a 747. Also, because the A380 is newer, the pilots flying it would not have as much experience on it as a 747 pilot could potentially have. This same thing could happen with the 747-8i, depending on how different its flight dynamics are from say, the 747-400.  Wink
  

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Reply #131 - Apr 14th, 2011 at 2:54am
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Got your point and didn't want to be insulting on it or something.
Of course, the heavy thing has some more kinetic energy to put into another one. But as the whole aircraft market covers all sizes, this is some unavoidable sideeffect of building e. g. B1900 and (when compared) huge 767 and above.
As said, they don't usually collide with lethal energy amounts, but sometimes "touch" like seen on that video.
If they collide with high speeds (means "air" then), even a small Cessna can take down a DC-9 for example. Happened at KLAS.  Undecided
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerom%C3%A9xico_Flight_498

Quote:
Also, because the A380 is newer, the pilots flying it would not have as much experience on it as a 747 pilot could potentially have.

Less experience on that plane (A380), you are right. Overall experience might come in at the same amount since the Captains on the A380 are coming from the other heavies of the corresponding fleet. Could mean A340 or 747 if the airline runs Boeing too, which more than a few do.

Quote:
This same thing could happen with the 747-8i, depending on how different its flight dynamics are from say, the 747-400.

Maybe, maybe not, because the manufactures spend quite some time on giving the plane the same feel like the older or even smaller ones. This high communality approach for example lead to the only minor cockpit changes from the 747-400 to the -8 and might also lead to a very, very similar flight feeling while still being more efficient.
Some 777 elements joined in though, that interactive checklist for example.

The whole Airbus stuff also not only shares cockpit layouts but the flight feeling too. I heard some Lufthansa Captains talking about the A380 and they said that it doesn't behave any different than the A340/A330 types, although being sized far above them. Vspeeds differ, yes, but the feel does not.
See it like on modern cars where you can choose the actual character of steering, braking and engine response by just some switch.
E. g., you don't actually see how much Aileron movement the plane uses when you move that sidestick. They've tuned it in the way that the same sidestick movement is necessary on all planes for a given bank angle, so the feel will always be the same, since the joysticks stays the same, you only change the plane.  Cheesy

This will surely not sound too sympathetic to the old school pilots, because it's full of software in between, but the newer Boeing planes (does not include the 747-8 since she was build as close to the 747-400 policies as possible) are doing just the same.
Interesting fact, the 777 and the whole Airbus bunch share the component supplier for the fly by wire installation. So what makes the difference then is just the software.
So, on some sectors of engineering, the aviation industry follows the path of the automotive one, using a wide arrangement of very similar parts but achieving a different product with the software and design setup in between and around the systems.
This of course does not include parts as wings or something, those are Boeing/Airbus/Embraer/and so on specials, but looking at the engines then, you return to the similar viewpoint as most machines are tuned for a special plane, but aren't build only for this one and from the scratch. They all belong to a family, for good reason, since the engineering there eats up huge amounts of money.
The 787 will feature a special though, coming with a non-bleedair system.
  
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Reply #132 - Apr 14th, 2011 at 11:55pm
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Hehehe, yeah I just might have to make sure that CVR is operational after all!!   Grin

I might just do that and I have a profile on Mycockpit.org

http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/album.php?albumid=69&attachmentid=2946

I was watching some Hawaii Five O today and saw some really nice B707's....my new rig should be in tomorrow and I can buy my FSX 707 and 727 from Captain Sim!  I had the FS2004 of both and love them.
  
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Reply #133 - Apr 15th, 2011 at 3:59am
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LOU wrote on Apr 13th, 2011 at 6:37pm:
CoolP and all the rest...

I am not attacking Airbus, or any of their fleet. Lord knows Boeing has its own problems. My only statement is that the A-380 is too big for these out of date airports like JFK or any other of the worlds old airports. That said, I prefer the Boeing logic to the Airbus, but that is just the pilot in me.  Tongue


Prefectly said Lou. But then again, if I was an Airbus rep, I'd say that the pilot in you? WHy should that matter? Because in Soviet Russia (no offense to Captain Sim guys) you fly Airbus plane!
  

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Reply #134 - Apr 15th, 2011 at 3:07pm
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boeing727223 wrote on Apr 14th, 2011 at 11:55pm:
....my new rig should be in tomorrow and I can buy my FSX 707 and 727 from Captain Sim!  I had the FS2004 of both and love them.

Great idea, you will like them I think.


Quote:
Because in Soviet Russia (no offense to Captain Sim guys) you fly Airbus plane!

Well, if this isn't intended to be offensive, what does it mean then? Maybe you can explain in some more detail, Sir?

I saw your posts over at another forum, where some guy showed a video about a landing Airbus, struggling hard with the heavy crosswinds. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz3LKi8So_o)
You replied "If thereh ad been an accident, rather an A320 than a 757." (sic!) which seems to follow the same logic and "humour", so I'm really wondering to what kind of a guy I'm looking at.

Since you are a proud reviewer, some bias free tendency and mind is your equipment and as long as you don't explain your Airbus hate to other people, but try spreading it in such inartificial ways, nobody will take you for serious.


Nobody will ever complain about fans, stating their emotions and feelings. The A380 is ugly? Indeed! You like Boeing planes? Me too!
You try to play smart on other smart people with posting Boeing Media Room stuff, naming them "truth" or stating, that a 757 would go beyond physical influences while all Airbus things struggle? Sorry, Sir, seems like some guys on this planet are more objective than you are currently.

For me, somebody called pj747 here and slightly different in other forums has developed a big problem and should either explain them or start preparing his "arguments" in a better way, if there are any.
As I've already mentioned in the other thread, these are flight sim forums, so all flight sim fans meet and discuss their fan based emotions and experiences.
If one of them starts getting political, he should be aware that some other guys around are able to do the same while not always developing such a plump tendency.  Wink


I don't question all your posts, but the ones including the "Airbus" item don't lack of insulting tendencies and I'm not about to close my eyes on them. My suggestion: Start being a not-fan there, instead of a hater. This keeps the forums friendly and informative while your current line will draw some attention you didn't expect (it seems).
That's just my personal impression of your presence here and there, just wanting to inform you on a clear but friendly basis since I really don't know what your problem is. Smiley


I was already pointing at you with some statements to leave out the hate, seems like you didn't pick up that track there while e. g. Lou started to wonder if I'm in trouble with his (friendly and welcome) bias. See my honest apologies to Lou above and, at the same time, see my stressing on that clear "you, pj747!" here.  Cool
  
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Reply #135 - Apr 18th, 2011 at 7:42pm
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New Trivia Quiz

On the HSI, in the glass cockpit, who knows what the "cement block" & the "noodle" are? Undecided
  

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Reply #136 - Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:02pm
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Glass cockpit....sorry Lou, I'm tooo old school for that question!   Grin
  
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Reply #137 - Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:36pm
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I think the noodle would be that thingy that shows you're even with the localizer... the cement, I have no clue.
  

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Reply #138 - Apr 19th, 2011 at 12:46am
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Back to the manual pj!  Grin
  

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Reply #139 - Apr 19th, 2011 at 5:52pm
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Come on this is not that hard....  Undecided
  

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Reply #140 - Apr 19th, 2011 at 11:54pm
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LOU wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 7:42pm:
New Trivia Quiz

On the HSI, in the glass cockpit, who knows what the "cement block" & the "noodle" are? Undecided


My guess for the "cement block" is the heading indicator and the "noodle" must be the magenta flight path line.
  

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Reply #141 - Apr 20th, 2011 at 12:16am
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?
  

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Reply #142 - Apr 20th, 2011 at 1:19am
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audiohavoc - you are 50% correct.

The heading "bug" is called the cement block, because it kinda looks like a cement block.  Huh
It's the double box around the compass rose at around 090 degrees in the picture.
The block is attached to the dashed heading select indication.

The "noodle" is not the magenta line. It is the trend line while in a turn.

It's the white segmented line at the nose of the plane.
It can be one, two or three (as in this picture) segments long and as you bank and turn.
The number of segments is controlled by the range you select on the MCP.
The "noodle" bends left or right to show the projection of the turn.



  

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Reply #143 - Apr 20th, 2011 at 1:30am
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Ahh, forgot about the trend line.
  

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Reply #144 - Apr 20th, 2011 at 5:30am
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audiohavoc wrote on Apr 20th, 2011 at 1:30am:
Ahh, forgot about the trend line.

I didn't even know it was a trend line! Embarrassed
  

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Reply #145 - Apr 20th, 2011 at 5:47am
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Markoz wrote on Apr 20th, 2011 at 5:30am:
audiohavoc wrote on Apr 20th, 2011 at 1:30am:
Ahh, forgot about the trend line.

I didn't even know it was a trend line! Embarrassed


Now you know.  Another helpful guide on some glass navigation displays is a green arc that shows the predicted distance to the altitude dialed into the MCP.  This is really useful when climbing or descending in vertical speed mode, especially when you are expected to be at a specific altitude when crossing a waypoint.  You can adjust the vertical speed until the green arc overlays the desired waypoint to ensure that you reach the desired altitude when crossing.  After some time navigating an old bird like the 727 with only VOR/DME/ADF navigation, you really come to appreciate how much information is displayed on the ND.  RNAV capable aircraft with an FMS really make navigation much easier, but they can be a real crutch for pilots who don't know how to navigate with basic nav radios and charts.


  

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Reply #146 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 2:58pm
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Hey, Lou, I'd like to drop two small items to trigger a story.  Cheesy

First, the use of reverse thrust after touchdown together with the problem to maintain a "stable" airflow over the rudder. Problem with the 727 or a thing to disregard? I've read both versions so far, so we need a lourification on this.  Smiley

Second, and also focused on the rear engine mounts of some planes, is the icing problem when all the "air suck up arrangements" are in the back of the plane.
I've read that Boeing was very anxious about the whole icing thingy since "dropped" ice may enter the engines, unlike on planes where the engines are wing mounted.
I've read that, because of this awareness, even some roof mounted antennas were de-iced by active heating to protect the No 2 engine.
  
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Reply #147 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 7:12pm
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CoolP asked: Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #146 - Today at 10:58:50   Hey, Lou, I'd like to drop two small items to trigger a story.  

First, the use of reverse thrust after touchdown together with the problem to maintain a "stable" airflow over the rudder. Problem with the 727 or a thing to disregard? I've read both versions so far, so we need a lourification on this.  

Second, and also focused on the rear engine mounts of some planes, is the icing problem when all the "air suck up arrangements" are in the back of the plane.
I've read that Boeing was very anxious about the whole icing thingy since "dropped" ice may enter the engines, unlike on planes where the engines are wing mounted.
I've read that, because of this awareness, even some roof mounted antennas were de-iced by active heating to protect the No 2 engine.


Answer to first question: The best answer is the school house answer - Delay reverse until nose wheel is on the ground.

Now what happened in the real world was that most pilots would select reverse detent (idle) as the nose was coming down, then apply desired reverse with nose wheel contact. I don't ever remember this being a big deal on the 727. Remember the center engine cascade vanes are horizontal and the pod engines are vertical. This tends to keep the effect of reverse on the rudder to a minimum. The 707 and other planes, where the outboard engines are far out on the wing, did make a big difference if one of the outboard engines did not go into reverse. I remember that the flight engineer would monitor the reverser lights and holler like a stuck pig if one did not go into reverse.  Shocked

Second question: The 727 was not as prone to ice FOD (foreign object damage) as was the MD-80. The nose wheel on the 727 had a "chine" molded into the tire to keep spray down. The Roof antennas were heated to avoid chunks of ice breaking off and going into the center engine. The MD-80 was just a mess. The nose wheel was a bigger problem than the 727 and had a "mud flap" to keep the spray from going over the wing into the engine, which was a NO GO item if it was missing. They also had a few gliders from large chunks of ice shedding off the inboard wing root and going right into the fan. SAS comes to mind!

The solution was to put a heating blanket at that section of the upper wing surface, or de-ice the wing almost every flight. Some planes had short string tufts in this critical area so the pilot, on walk around, could check if ice had formed. This was not just a cold weather problem, but even on warm days ice would form because of the cold fuel in the tank.
  

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Reply #148 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 8:54pm
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Thanks, Lou, for lourification.  Cheesy

I just came up with that rudder airflow thing since I've read about some advice to let the No 1&3 thrust setting stay lower than the No 2 one when in reverse.
Found the source, here it is, left side of the excerpt.


Just wanted to hear some rw experience of yours there since you always say that the aircraft hasn't read the manual, which is true of course.  Smiley
  
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Reply #149 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 9:26pm
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Yup, that is the school house chapter and verse indeed.

The original 727-100 had blocker doors which were VERY effective, but I guess the stress on the reverser and resultant high maintenance cost spelled the end of the doors and the birth of the cascade system.

This fiddling with the reverser levers trying to just pull on the middle handle and steer the plane and work the brakes was not very practical while going down the runway at 200 feet a second! What we ended up teaching was - when it's wet, delay the reverse until the nose is on the ground. In a crosswind, nobody held the nose off. It took only 2 or 3 seconds to smoothly lower the nose to the runway and starting to deploy the reverser as the nose was coming down took about the same time.

On touch down, first you deploy the speed break, then as you started the nose down you would pull on the reverse levers. The levers would stop at the interlock detent and you could feel them unlock. Then we would yank them to the 12 o'clock position (max) and quickly go forward to about 11 o'clock. That would give you around 1.60 EPR. We would try to be at idle reverse by 80 knots so as not to get a compressor stall. You could leave them at idle until clearing the runway, but you never would want to go from high reverse to forward thrust because you would get what is called a "forward thrust bump." Basically a push forward - not good!  Angry

Lou
  

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Reply #150 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 9:29pm
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Thanks again, Lou. Always interesting to read some practical oriented stuff besides all that theory a sim pilots eats up.  Smiley
  
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Reply #151 - Apr 21st, 2011 at 10:49pm
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i thought cascades were more effective...
  

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Reply #152 - Apr 22nd, 2011 at 12:31am
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Posted by: pj747      Posted on: Today at 18:49:35
i thought cascades were more effective...


No, just less moving parts.
When you just popped open the blocker doors you could feel the drag. The inside monkey motion is still the same.

Lou
  

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Reply #153 - Apr 24th, 2011 at 4:25pm
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This is just to give you an idea of what it looks like out the window of a 757 at FL390 looking at a group of thunderstorms.
These are poor quality photos because I shot them off my TV with a digital still camera. I video taped this flight a while back on VHS so the quality is less than stellar. I will try to dub it to the computer and make it a MP3 so I can upload it to this site so you can have a good laugh.  Grin



Here is what it looks like on the HSI with the radar image selected.



The picture is bad as a still, but in the video it had color and looks a bit like this...



I know they are poor photos, but it's still interesting to see the real thing and the radar image.

Lou


  

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Reply #154 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 5:24am
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Did you take any pictures of the whole cockpit while you were in flight? Google images just has cold-and-dark photos.  Wink
  

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Reply #155 - May 3rd, 2011 at 7:43pm
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Russian TU-154 (727 wannabe) Shocked

Registration is given as RA-85563 - was flying from the Moscow Chkalovsky base on 29 April.

Details of the incident remain sketchy and unconfirmed but a series of video clips shows the aircraft departing, before it appears to encounter problems in lateral and longitudinal control.



http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/01/356137/video-tu-154-struggles-ag...
  

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Reply #156 - May 4th, 2011 at 1:03am
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You know, the Russians make great fighters, but they don't seem to have great luck on commercial airplanes. Has there been any rather successful Russian jet? You always hear about the unsuccessful ones, but were there successes?
  

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Reply #157 - May 5th, 2011 at 12:15am
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I'd say the Antonov 225 does a pretty good job!
  

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Reply #158 - May 5th, 2011 at 12:24am
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True, but I meant passenger jets.  Wink

This might turn out to be successful:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/sukhoi_superjet100.php
  

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Reply #159 - May 5th, 2011 at 1:32am
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I can't believe people still fly those deathtraps.....
  
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Reply #160 - May 7th, 2011 at 1:41am
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France 447: How scientists found a needle in a haystack


Maggie Koerth-Baker at 7:59 AM Friday, May 6, 2011



The cockpit voice recorder from Air France 447, as it was found at the
bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.


Last weekend, investigators announced that they had recovered the flight
data recorder from the wreckage of Air France 447-a jetliner that crashed in
the deep Atlantic two years ago. But, while the discovery of the data
recorder is recent, the story of how Flight 447 was found goes back a month.


This year's search was the fourth attempt to find the wreckage of Flight
447, and it probably would have been the last, even if the plane hadn't been
found. Previous searches had been done by boat, mini-sub, and-back when
there was still a chance of catching the audio signal from the plane's black
boxes-underwater acoustic sensors. In 2010, scientists from the Woods Hole
Oceanographic Institute were brought in to search for the crash site using
autonomous robot subs. Still nothing had been found.


On March 22, 2011, the Woods Hole team set out from Brazil to try again.
They'd barely been at the search location for a week when they found what
they were looking for. On April 3, researchers spotted the plane's debris
field, 13,000 feet down, smack in the middle of a massive underwater
mountain range.


The success was astounding, but I wanted to know ... what made this search
different from the others? What could the team from Woods Hole do that other
groups could not, and how did their system work? To find out, I spoke with
Mike Purcell, senior engineer with Woods Hole, and the chief of sea search
operations for the mission.


Maggie Koerth-Baker: Your team found Flight 447 with the help of an
autonomous submarine called the Remus 6000. Can you tell me a little about
the history of that sub? What could the Remus 6000 do that previous systems
couldn't?


Mike Purcell: The first one was developed in 2001. Really, they have a
greater depth limit. There are no other deep water subs that can go to 6000
meters. That's one way it's unique. Also, between the six Remus 6000's that
exist out in the world right now, there's probably been more missions done
with a Remus 6000 than any other deep water AUV.


To do a search, the Remus 6000 gets a mission program, a track line to swim.
It goes into the water and uses various naviagtion techniques to swim the
track line. There isn't anybody actively controlling it. But it's also not
as smart as you might thing. It's not making decisions based on terrain,
other than staying some fixed altitutude off the bottom. It can't go around
things or avoid stuff that might be in front of it. It does go up over
mountain ridges, but the Remus 6000s do sometimes run into things, too. They
don't have the full sensor capacity and independent thinking to make
decisions that some totally autonamous robot might. One reason that's the
case-it's just harder to do that in the water than in the air. We're really
limited to one kind of sensor, acoustic sensors, underwater.


MKB: What kind of research do Remus 6000 subs normally work on? Was this
search different in any way, from a technological or logistics perspective?


MP: Our lab ... we've been involved in the development of AUVs. We've been
making the newer and better ones over the last 15 years. It was only in
about 2008 that we started getting involved in operations. We purchased a
couple Remus 6000s and we're the operators. They were involved in search for
Amelia Earhart's airplane. We did some localization of deep corals in Gulf
Stream off of Florida. We mapped the Titanic site with AUV's last year. And
then we've now worked on the Air France survey twice, once in 2010 and once
in 2011.

Even when we've done these searches for the airplanes there's been a
tremendous amount of data collected, and that's been made available, or will
be made available in the future, to the science community. What kinds of
things can people do with seafloor data? I'm not a geologist, so I'm not
totally sure what they might do. But a lot of the seafloor is totally
unexplored. We've got about 1500 square miles mapped. And I think there's a
lot of interesting geography there in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge where we did
this search.


MKB: How many people involved in running one of these searches, and what do
they do?


MP: We had three vehicles out there. When we're running three vehicles we
have 12 people, working in two 12-hour shifts. There's six people on each
shift. And they're doing things like getting the vehicles in and out of the
water. Reprogramming the vehicles. Tracking the vehicles. There's usually
two AUVs in the water at all times. And there's a guy who is dedicated to
processing the data.


MKB: The Remus 6000s had previously been involved in the search for Air
France 447, but hadn't found it before. Was there a major location change,
or some other shift in how the search was done this time around? Were you
involved in deciding where the search would happen?


MP: We were out there first in 2010, and there'd been a pretty big modeling
study that guided the search then. Of the entire area, which is 17,000
square kilometers, 7,000 had been what we were search going into this year.
The plan was to search it all. There was one difference, we just decided to
start close to the last known position of the plane, instead of further away
from it. The BEA [Ed: Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses, the French air safety
investigators] identified three search zones, big areas that they wanted us
to do in order, and then, from there, we sort of had the freedom to decide
where we start in those areas. So we started out based on where we left off
last year.


MKB: The mid-ocean ridge, where the search was conducted, has been described
as something like an underwater Himalayan mountain range. A lot of reports
I've read on it made it sound very foreboding and not like a place where it
would be possible to find anything. But WHOI has been doing research on the
mid-ocean ridge for decades. Is the scary reputation deserved? What
challenges do you face doing research in that location, as an organization
that has experience with it?


MP: So, I think this mission was different for us in that we were trying to
search such a huge area. We needed our vehicles to swim up and down those
mountains. The water out there was 4000 meters meters deep at the deepest
spot and very close to that was where we found the wreckage. But just a few
miles away it was only 2000 meters meters deep. There are some very steep
mountains.

ONLY ALLOWED 7,000 characters - rest of story...

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/06/air-france-447-how-s.html
  

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Reply #161 - May 9th, 2011 at 4:34pm
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A fully-loaded 747-8 Freighter with worn-out brakes attempted an aborted takeoff on a California runway for certification.
During the abort, reverse thrust is not used since it is not part of the certification process.

An abort is the most dangerous phases of flying. You are heavy with fuel and often the reason for the abort is the loss of an engine which makes it even harder to stop.


http://tinyurl.com/42lrcss

  

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