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 25 Lou - STORIES (Read 911414 times)
CoolP
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #60 - Apr 1st, 2011 at 8:32pm
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Sorry for answering/relating to your answers so late, Lou. I was shooting at some CTD source of my installation and, finally, found it.
So I was busy in the skies and it seems like you are too when I look at your description of the sim "all day routine". Nice diversity indeed.
Those old planes from CS (the newer ones too, but not as much as the old ones) really caught me and I visit as many places as I can with them in the sim world.

Funny reading about the names (there are so many of them) for the 727 planes.
I agree with the impression from the other guys, seeing the 727 pilots enjoying their planes ("sporty", as you say) while the 707 people really had to work in them.
In the sim, the 707 is a brick and therefore creates some "work" feeling here, while the 727 is easy, fast and less "lazy" if you like.
But for the looks of the 707 alone, I must say I'm really addicted to her. Nice old&heavy feeling there, although, from modern standards, heavy doesn't fit anymore.

What do you think about the later Boeing stuff like the 777 for example? Must admit that she's my rw Boeing favourite and also shows some very innovative features.
Together with the huge engines (one of them has more thrust than the eight ones of the first B-52 series, impressive fact!) this forms a picture of a nice aircraft indeed.
Ok, it's fully of "sissy stuff".  Grin

Could imagine the old Captain Lou entering the cockpit, asking the guys around which of them is the "systems manager" in charge while stating himself as a real Captain.  Tongue
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #61 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 12:40am
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Are any of those 727 still in service? Are any 727 at all still in service?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #62 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:07am
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CoolP, I was close to flying the 777, but my buddy who flies it says it's a SISSY plane. Even a poorly trained monkey could fly it!  Tongue

OK, it is a cool plane, but I have no idea how nice it flies except that my friend says it is very easy to fly and a good money maker. I would have liked to have been around to fly the 787, but it's gonna have to be a sim only plane for me!  Cry

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #63 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:12am
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boeing 247,

There are 727 still flying around, not sure how many, but the fuel cost will decide how much longer. Also, since they tend to fly around in jungle climes, their maintenance costs go up as well.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #64 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:20am
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Are there any big commercial airlines still using them, or are they mostly private owners and such?
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #65 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 2:12am
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Many are still used for VIP stuff, but most are used by cargo airlines.

LOU, you also didn't fly the 777 because TWA went away before they could have any, correct? Its fly-by-wire and the 787 will probably be programmed to fly a lot like it. I wouldn't call the world's largest twinjet a sissy, but it is easy to fly with fly-by-wire I'm told. The MD-11 lie emy dad flew was MUCH harder.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #66 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:02am
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boeing247 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 1:20am:
Are there any big commercial airlines still using them, or are they mostly private owners and such?

I think the private ownership is a rare thing there, but in passenger service, I can only imagine some South American companies for example.
Major US or European carriers don't use it because of the cost effect that Lou mentioned.
The cargo roles, as mentioned by the other guys, is a bigger one at Fedex and e. g. Heavylift. You will often find the cargo carriers to "suck up" all the older passenger jets, even the not so successful ones like the MD-11 or the DC-10 (which was ok in success, not overwhelming though).
The carriers often retrofit new, less noisy, engine stuff and some FMC-like equipment.
I think that the DC-10 for example "lost" its Flight Engineer when being modified to MD-11 standards (called MD-10 then), so they really invest some money there.

Seems like their cargo market isn't that sensible to "ticket prices" like the passenger thing where those three engine aircraft really limit your margin while you can't take advantage of the triple engine setup.
The MD-11 and the 727 (with the newer engines) should be nice on climbing out of shorter fields (compared to their size) with some heavy loads. Not a big pro for operating with passengers, they get heavier too, but are limited somehow.  Grin
As said, older planes transporting passengers are rare, but the cargo role lives very long. Might well be that some cargo 707 is still around. Passenger service was with Avianca for example, well after 2000.
But economic dependencies will also catch up on the major cargo carriers and, as far as I know, most of them already have orders on e. g. the 777F or the 747-8F. Airbus also tends to aim at this market with their A330-200F, replacing the A300F. So the modern planes also arrive there, at the companies being able to take the costs of buying them.

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I would have liked to have been around to fly the 787, but it's gonna have to be a sim only plane for me!

Don't worry, Lou, you have all the real classics on your list while the newer guys are just able to speak about different software versions on their planes.  Cheesy
Now's the time to drive this thing.
http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=2140

I'm really waiting for the 787 to arrive. A nice plane, innovative, new cockpit setup, tons of sissy equipment.  Cheesy
Don't know if it is able to speak to the pilots though. At least, they've got some widescreen entertainment suite there, that's for sure.
The high amount of carbon fiber structures also is a new item to be exited about. The were able to raise the differential pressure on the fuselage, offering a lower cabin alt when cruising, also more humid.
Bleedless engines are another innovative item. That's how they set up their new passenger money maker.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #67 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 12:56pm
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Hey Lou, my Dad's retired United friend who lives in Port Townsend and Texas (two extremes right?) was thinking about applying for a Boeing job. The job is for former airline pilots, and they are paid to go ferry the big jets places, and he was going to do this to fly the 787. If it interested you, you could do this.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #68 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 4:10pm
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Thanks everyone for the discussions. It make interesting reading for us "Sim" pilots only.  Back to my original question, in a real 707 or 727 would you ever find both doppler and INS. And if so, in what instances would you use one over the other? Would one just be a back up and one of those two be the primary nav system, say on trans oceanic flights where VOR is not available?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #69 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 5:57pm
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BrianG asked...

Back to my original question, in a real 707 or 727 would you ever find both doppler and INS. And if so, in what instances would you use one over the other? Would one just be a back up and one of those two be the primary nav system, say on trans oceanic flights where VOR is not available?


Brian,

Doppler was OK in its time, but even Loran C was sometimes better. I guess you could still find an old 707 with Doppler and a single INS and/or GPS installed. INS like the Delco Carousel were a big deal in the 70's. The IRS nav system using a ring laser was a lot better and less maintenance. Using the doppler shift of light, the ring laser had less moving parts and produced a more accurate track.

Some detail information on the IRS system...
http://www.biggles-software.com/software/757_tech/flight_management_navigation/i...

As for the question by pj747 - That sounds like too much work to me!  Wink  TWA never had the 777 on its list of planes. The 747 fleet was well established and the 767 fleet was slowly replacing the big bird. By the time AA bought TWA our fleet was pretty much all 2 engine both domestic and international. With MD-80 and commuters feeding the long haul stuff which were 767-200 and -300's.

It is a sissy plane compared to the old 707 and even the 747 where you need to know which foot to use if an engine fails. The 777 and most of the sissy planes put the rudder in for you... too much computer stuff in the flying department for me. Push a button marked START and the engine either starts or it tries again. What happened to all the careful watching of the start procedure? Too much like my Hybrid car.  Huh
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #70 - Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:55pm
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Gladly American cancelled all their (TWA's) orders for the A320. My Dad doesn't like the TWA 757's that Delta has, as their MFD doesn't have radar overlays with selectable overlays.
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #71 - Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:03am
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Thanks alot for the info Lou. Surprized to hear that Loran C was used on jetliners. I had a Loran C on my sailboat and may time found my old Bendix Radio Direction Finder was just as useful for Coastal Navigation.
So on ocean flights on 707's in the 60's and 70's was doppler suitable or did you use INS?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #72 - Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:20pm
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BiranG said:  Surprized to hear that Loran C was used on jetliners. I had a Loran C on my sailboat and may time found my old Bendix Radio Direction Finder was just as useful for Coastal Navigation.
So on ocean flights on 707's in the 60's and 70's was doppler suitable or did you use INS?


Brian,

I never used Loran C in the jet. I was just saying that sometimes Loran C worked better than Doppler. Loran A was questionable if there was any solar activity. If the sea was calm Doppler would loose the drift sense and go to DR, sometimes for long periods. None of the TWA 707 ever had INS. Doppler was primary with Loran A & Consolan and maybe some ADF in that order. The non flying pilot would do the navigation and they were busy checking on the Doppler by taking Loran A readings and God Forbid Consolan or ADF. It's one thing in a ship to use Loran or Consolan since you're only doing 15 knots, but at 500 kts the fix is a lot harder to do and any error is greater.  The spacing on the North Atlantic was 120 NM and 2,000 feet in altitude back then, so that reflected the accuracy of the navigation systems of that day. Now, with all the fancy IRS stuff the biggest problem is a fat finger hitting the wrong number on the computer keypad.  Shocked

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #73 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 8:29am
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Now, with all the fancy IRS stuff the biggest problem is a fat finger hitting the wrong number on the computer keypad.

You once again name it, Lou. Like mentioned in other threads around these forums, the situational awareness and the plan to "stay ahead of the plane" doesn't always succeed. And even the fancy glass cockpits are only as good as the guys looking at it.

Edited:
3.12      Buga, Colombia – B-757-200 –N651AA – 12/20/95

The Buga accident involved American Airlines flight 965, a Boeing B-757-200 turbofan on a regularly scheduled FAR Part 121 flight from Miami, FL to Cali, Colombia.  The aircraft impacted a ridge on San Jose Mountain, which rises above the town of Buga to 12,900’ MSL at its highest point, at approximately the 8960’ elevation, on a heading of 221o magnetic, while the aircraft was in approach configuration.   Impact was 30.4 NM from the Cali VOR facility.  Of the 167 persons aboard, only four passengers survived with serious injuries.  Weather in the accident vicinity was classified as dark night, VMC.

The Cali airport lies in the middle of a valley between two mountain ridges.  The crew of flight 965 were expecting to fly an ILS approach in which they overflew the field, circled back and landed on the northbound runway (designated 01).  However, because winds were calm, the Cali approach controller offered the crew the option of a “straight-in” approach to the opposite end of this runway (19):  “would you like the one-nine straight in?”  CVR transcripts show the first officer said to the captain: “yeah, we’ll have to scramble to get down (but) we can do it.”  The captain then replied to ATC:  “Yes sir, we’ll need a lower altitude right away, though.”  

The VOR/DME approach to Cali Runway 19 is a non-precision approach starting at the Tulua VOR facility, 43 NM from the Cali VOR at an altitude of 14,900’ MSL.  Beyond Tulua, aircraft follow a heading of 200o magnetic and descend to 5000’ MSL.  Following the contours of the valley, they then turn to a heading of 190o magnetic 21 NM from the VOR, maintaining a 5000’ MSL altitude until reaching a navigational fix 16 NM from the VOR.  At this point, they descend to the 3900’ MSL minimum descent altitude; the ROZO non-directional beacon (NDB) is the signal for aircraft to begin final approach.  

Because there was no terminal radar at Cali, ATC had to rely on pilot reports for information on aircraft position, and requested that flight 965 “report (passing) Tulua (VOR).”  The flight crew, after some initial confusion, realized that ROZO was the final approach fix, and asked ATC “can 965 go direct (to) ROZO and do the ROZO ONE arrival (procedure)?”  ATC replied “Affirmative,” but then reiterated “Report Tulua and 21 miles (the point at which the approach course turns), 5000 feet.” (25)

To slow their airspeed and increase their descent rate, the captain extended the aircraft’s speed brakes at this point, and tuned the flight management system to ROZO by entering an “R” on its keyboard.  Post-crash investigation shows the flight management computer responded with a list of the 12 nearest navigational facilities, ranked in order of distance from the aircraft, having call signs beginning with “R,” together with their latitude/longitude coordinates.  Unknown to the captain, this list did not contain ROZO; it was not entered as such in the flight management system’s memory.  Without bothering to verify its position, the captain selected the topmost facility on the list, assuming it was ROZO.  Unfortunately, it was the ROMEO NDB located in Bogota, 130 NM away. (26)

Once this selection was made, the aircraft began a sharp, 90o turn to the east, heading towards ROMEO.  It was just about this point that the aircraft passed over the Tulua VOR.  Because Tulua was no longer an active waypoint for the flight, it was not displayed on the flight management system, and the crew was unaware it had been crossed.  For reasons that are unclear, the crew did not notice the aircraft had veered sharply off course for about 45 seconds, and then took another 45 seconds to take appropriate corrective action.  All the while, the aircraft was descending.

Cali ATC, realizing the flight should have passed Tulua, but had not reported doing so, then asked “distance now?”  The captain responded “distance from Cali (VOR) is 38 (NM).”  Cali ATC acknowledged, but did not question the report.  Since Tulua is 43 NM from the VOR, it had clearly been passed.  Post-crash investigation showed the controller in question had command of the English language sufficient to engage in routine ATC exchanges, but apparently not enough to raise detailed questions to the crew of flight 965 regarding position and heading as they strayed off course. (27)

Over the next minute, the CVR shows the crew realizing they are heading away from Cali.  The captain says:  “Where are we?  Come right … go to Cali … we got (expletive) up here, didn’t we?”  The first officer then disengages the flight management system and initiates a manual turn to the right of approximately 90 degrees, the end result of which places the aircraft back on the initial approach course.  Unfortunately, the excursion off the approach course had taken the aircraft well beyond the confines of the valley containing the airport.  Still descending, N651AA was now dangerously close to the peaks on the east side of the valley.  Eventually, the aircraft’s GPWS begins to sound a “Terrain! Terrain!” alert, followed quickly by a “Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up!” warning.  The crew’s reaction was immediate and decisive; the nose was pitched up and maximum throttle applied.  But the speed brakes remained deployed, a factor which negatively affected the aircraft’s climb rate.  Eleven seconds after the initial alert, the aircraft impacted San Jose Mountain. (28)

N651AA was equipped with CVR, FDR and GPWS.  Table 13  presents altitude and elevation information for this accident.  This information is presented graphically in Figure 12.

from: Investigation of Controlled Flight into Terrain
U. S. Department Of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

The last highlighted part was done intentionally, to show that even some well trained crews may, when getting into stressful situations, profit from certain "laws" to apply, without their interaction because their minds are just full of a flashing "get out of here, now!" then, not recognizing some basic and (sadly) lethal circumstances.
The only clear mind on a plane with the (not test) “Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up!” sound active is the one in those little chips while all the others (at least partially) revert back to to an instinctive (and therefore not always logical) behaviour, while physical laws stay "logical" all the time.
That's my personal viewpoint, well described by this incident which started with "just" a too fast finger on the FMC. Not trying to play smart though.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #74 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:04pm
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CoolP, there is always a chain of events that lead up to the incident. If someone can break one of the links in the chain, then the incident may not happen. All the checks are in place, but they must be used. Case in point... one pilot is loading the FMC with a flight plan. It is established procedure that the other pilot check the information and that the second pilot execute the plan. This is to insure that there is a second set of eyes checking the input to the computer - very important. It is very easy to put in a course that is off by one degree. You are tired and it's dark and you miss the keys by one number... this could lead to something bad.

Another story. We used to do training in the real plane along with the simulator. Gas (Jet - A) was 13 cents a gallon, so it was sometimes easy to grab a plane and take 10 or 15 pilots and go to a quiet airport and shoot landings. (Pilots need 3 landings every 90 days to stay current in Part - 121- sometimes hard to do on long haul flights.)

So one bright morning, an instructor crew takes a 707 and a bunch of pilots from New York down to Atlantic City airport to do a bunch of landings. Several of the pilots also need a short check, also called a 6 month instrument check. They take off from JFK and head down to ACY - a short trip of maybe 15 minutes. Along the way they simulate an engine failure by pulling back an outboard engine. They commence to fly a 3 engine ILS under the hood to simulate an engine out approach in IMC. Remember, there is nothing wrong with this plane.

During the approach it is noticed that there is a slow leak in the hydraulic system that powers the rudder. The aircraft is down to 500 feet on the approach. Now because there IS a slight problem with fluid loss in the rudder system the instructor calls for the fluid loss checklist. (This is part of the chain of events.) The first thing on the fluid loss checklist is PUMPS OFF! The instructor tells the "student pilot" to go around. The pumps are turned, but the "student pilot" is not really in the loop since he thinks he is still flying a three engine approach. As the pilot pushes the throttles up for the go around the rudder pressure falls to zero. Rudder control is lost and the plane, which is now around 300 feet rolls over on its back and impacts the ground right in front of the tower. All are lost.

A sad story, true, but if someone had broken the chain of events it would not have happened. The instructor was too busy with his "simulation." There really was no big problem with the slow leak. Someone should have screamed JUST FLY THE PLANE! That's easy after the event, but during the flight it is sometimes hard to filter all the information and break one of the links in the chain.

It was very soon after this incident that all airlines stopped regular training in the real plane and switched to simulation. Hopefully, we learn from mistakes. We used to kid around saying... Do you know why PanAm is the most experienced airline??? Because they have the most experiences!  Shocked  Some times with black humor the point gets across.
  

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