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 25 Lou - STORIES (Read 665878 times)
CoolP
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #30 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 3:51pm
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Don't forget, Lou, this Windows runs our beloved Sim.  Smiley
But I got your point there.

Those laws and not-laws are interesting in many ways since, as you've pointed out, the most newer planes from both devs are driven "by wire" (some partially, some fully) and all the things which differentiates them in case of the policy of operation then is within some software.
Of course, the design of the ac is another factor too, but as they have to fight the same physical laws there, some things might be more similar than one thinks.

For the guys wondering, even the Airbus can be flown "directly" (by design in some situations) and intentionally, when you disable all the "law containing stuff". I own some very interesting video where an A320 Captain goes through the systems, on the real plane and the (airline!) Simulator.
In the Sim, he disables the stuff to show that the "Tex Johnson Roll" (ever me met him? must have been a cool guy too) is available too in the A320. Fun to watch, maybe I can find this stuff on youtube.


Did you watch those linked videos here, about the B17 training?
That's a very sympathetic impression about learning an aircraft, isn't it? That "ol' buddy" (instructor) tells his younger fellow how to go on the old Boeing (which was new back then).
Although, this instructor isn't that old, but as most pilots of that time started very, very soon (they seemed to have been in great need of Pilots, for good reason), he, relatively, might be.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #31 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:24pm
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CoolP,

I love the old Army videos.
We still had stuff like this in the 60's.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #32 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:43pm
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Did you encounter any emergencies in all those years, Lou? And, if so, what was done to prevent a repeated incident?
Since you've always landed at the right airport (knowing from another thread around), there may be some other stories waiting to be told. Flown a barrel roll for good reason or something.  Cool
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #33 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 3:18pm
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CoolP,

Once in the early 70's I was flying a charter from KHOU to LFPG. We were heavy with fuel and as we leveled off at cruise altitude I noticed that the number two turbo compressor had tripped off. I tried to restart the compressor to no avail. I started looking around and noticed the #2 low oil pressure light would not test??? Then I found a few other weired things that were not looking right with #2 engine. I took a walk back in the cabin to have a look at the #2 engine. It looked normal except there was what looked like some plastic sticking out from the front part of the cowl.

On returning to the cockpit I decided to check the fire warning system. All tested normal except #2, it would not test??? After checking other things on #2 it was decided to shut it down and land in KJFK to see what was going on. We had to dump fuel to get near landing weight. The fuel dump chute on the 707 is between the engines instead of at the end of the wing. Dumping is always something to be careful with!

We were able to give the company a heads up for our arrival and they had a second plane ready so we could move the passengers from the sick plane to another plane without delay. When we got to the gate and the #2 cowl was opened we discovered that the 15th stage high pressure bleed duct had cracked and very hot air was leaking into the engine cowl. It had melted almost all the wiring for the various items that we saw in the cockpit. The fire warning did not work is because some of the wiring had melted - bad design  Angry . The stuff that looked like plastic sticking out of the cowl was the melted blocker doors from the fan reverser section.

Since this was older cable and push rod design, we were able to shut the engine down with mechanical controls. I wonder if these new fly-by-wire designs would have survived all that heat and let us shut the engine down?

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #34 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 3:48pm
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Good question about the FADEC + FBW stuff. There are some reported incidents where they only had a fallback engine (last active) state or one which does everything, but no shut down.
On first view, the "manual shut down" at the airport looks very odd. Last seen on that Qantas A380 (I think). Firetrucks giving all they've got to cause a flameout on an engine which is proven to withstand quite some water until this happens.
They've said that they had control over the engine (wasn't the blown one, but it's neighbour, #1) concerning the power output, but couldn't shut it down.
So the list of personnel being able to shut down an engine looks like this.
1) Pilots
2) FE (if present)
3) Fire Fighter
4) Baggage cart driver (doesn't necessarily have to be present at shutdown)

4 times redundancy, now that's what I call safe.  Grin

Always a tradeoff it seems, going from old and mechanic to anything newer, avoiding surges, increasing efficiency and stuff.
Maybe the manual shutdown leads to things like this then?



Do you have any favourite approaches which (maybe) still are very demanding or nice, even in the sim?
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #35 - Mar 19th, 2011 at 6:22pm
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A fun approach is the river approach into RW 18 at KDCA. It was a lot of fun in the 727 since you had to do the math to make the crossing altitudes, but the 757 was easy since it was all built into the computer display.

A real different approach was the FDS approach into LFPG. Back in the early 70's in the 707 landing in Paris in the fog was tough since there was no CAT-II or CAT-III back then. So, the French rigged up this cool system called FDS - fog dispersal system. Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up. The engines went along the approach path and about 3,000 feet down the runway. As you crossed the outer marker you would call the tower. They would throttle up the engines and warm up the air along the approach path. As you got near the runway they went to idle with the engines and the fog would lift just enough so you could land. It was a bit bumpy as you went through the disturbed air, but not too bad and it looked like you were flying into a tunnel. You could see the approach lights just fine, but you needed to land in the touchdown zone as the FDS ran out around 3,000 feet down the runway and it got very foggy fast.

Lou
  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #36 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 1:40am
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LOU wrote on Mar 19th, 2011 at 6:22pm:
...So, the French rigged up this cool system called FDS - fog dispersal system. Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up...

Lou


Hi LOU,

It seems the french FDS - Fog Dispersal System was an improvement of the old english system called Fog Investigation and Dispersal Operation (FIDO), also know as Fog Intense Dispersal Operation or Fog Intense Dispersal Of, the device developed by Arthur Hartley, as cited at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Investigation_and_Dispersal_Operation_%28FIDO%2...

Am I wrong?

Best regards,

Pinatubo.
  

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CoolP
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #37 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 12:26pm
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Guys, I hope you don't fell offended when I say that I was looking at my watch when reading about
Quote:
Along the last mile or so of the approach lights they buried a bunch of jet engines in the ground with the dispersed exhaust pointed up.

Couldn't believe it and was checking if the first of April has already arrived.

Such things existed? Looking at my monitor, very impressed and surprised.  Shocked
  
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LOU
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #38 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 3:10pm
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Pinatubo,

I never saw any demo of the British system, but it must have worked. The FDS system the French used was much later so it appears they had some time to improve the British idea outside of war. The jet engines were old and no longer serviceable for flight as I understood the contraption. As you can guess it cost a bunch of money if you had to divert to an alternate because of bad weather. The cost of putting up the passengers in a hotel and the loss of the return flight made FDS worth the cost to the airlines. For its time FDS did the trick, but soon the improvements in both ground based nav and cockpit instruments phased out this stopgap invention. I'm glad I saw it in operation. I never saw this system used in the USA.


More reading...

http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT3712542&id=AxY0AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&...

http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT4475927&id=3dE1AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&...

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976JApMe..15.1226W



  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #39 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 6:02pm
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So foggy days gave the residents some nice sounds too, am I right?  Cool
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #40 - Mar 20th, 2011 at 7:47pm
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LFPG airport was placed out in the boondocks north of Paris. The location when it was built was mostly farm land and was very prone to fog especially ice fog in the winter. Now, the airport is surrounded on all sides with all kinds of buildings and industry. In the 60's and 70's jets were pretty loud, but the high by-pass fan engines of the newer planes and other sound abating tech has really kept the noise level down. Since the Concorde is no longer flying even the birds have regained their hearing.  Cheesy
  

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CoolP
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #41 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:30am
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Oh, what I would give for just some more Concorde flights.  Undecided So sad that the real queen of the skies isn't in service anymore. I really miss her.
A Milestone of aviation history, I think that I'm a fan.  Embarrassed Yes, the 747 was too, but in a different way.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #42 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 4:06pm
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CoolP,

I know your are a fan of the SST, but here is a short story about why this beast was doomed from the beginning. Sure, getting across the pond in 3 hours was tres cool indeed, but at the cost of a small car, was it worth it?

One afternoon we were headed west across the Atlantic in our 2 engine 767, plodding along at M.78 when we received several frantic calls from SHANWICK (ocean control east of 30 degrees west) and GANDER control advising us of a Concorde making an emergency descent in our location due to an engine failure. Soon, we saw the beast as it descended to a lower altitude.

It turned out the Concorde had lost and engine at high altitude cruise and could not fly that high on 3 remaining engines. The plane also had to reduce speed and really started to suck up the fuel. They landed in Gander and there they sat until a rescue mission could be dispatched to pick up the passengers. So a three hour crossing turned into a multi-day voyage.



  

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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #43 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 5:55pm
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Sounds bad, indeed.

From reading the books and watching the videos (you are right, I'm a fan) I wouldn't have thought that she struggles that much on "3 out of 4".
Sure, the high flying supercruise is ended then and, if an airfield is in range, nobody would continue but land and check the problems, right?
Would a 747 continue to fly across the Pond when having lost 1 engine?

Concerning the ticket prices, there's a funny story around that they were actually raised after the airlines asked their passengers about them. They all guessed the wrong, much higher than current, price since their companies seemed to have done the booking.
The airlines then lifted the prices to the guesswork values.  Cheesy

Don't worry, I didn't expect much admiration towards the European Express here. I think, without doing it in an offensive way, that every pilot raises some sort of bias towards his most flown manufacturer.
The interesting things happen when they (are forced to?) change it, gaining the left seat experience in both (or more) worlds. What will they name as their favorite then?
All the stories and impression in between are full of those "needles", aiming to show which is the better one. Normal business in some way. Always funny and interesting reading from both sides.

All pilots of the Concorde transitioned of course, flying Boeing (many Captains in the later years came from the 747) or other planes before and even they seem to speak with a Tongue when they do their PA.


Since the aviation business is a highly political one (e. g., remember that, now, Boeing Air Force Tanker deal? Oh boy! Grin), those mentioned "needles" add the things to smile about while the political stuff stays something which doesn't always fit in the oh so nice public picture of friendship between countries.


Lou, I had some question in mind lately, concerning an emergency behaviour but it seems if lost it for now. Can't remember the situation.
But expect me to ask later.
  
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Re: Lou - STORIES
Reply #44 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 9:22pm
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CoolP, we were surprised as well that Concorde had such a problem loosing just one of the four engines, but I guess it could not keep up the supersonic speed and thus had to start down into the thicker air where it really burned up the fuel. As for the 707 or 747 shutting one engine down did not have the same impact. You could, depending on the circumstances, continue at a slower speed and go to your destination. Three engine planes had to divert, but the rule was nearest suitable airport which kinda means you can pick which airport you would like to land at but maybe not go all the way to your destination. Two engine planes have to land at the nearest airport.

Lou

P.S., sorry you are having a senior moment... it happens all the time here!  Sad
  

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