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New User Questions (Read 6204 times)
btscott
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New User Questions
Mar 20th, 2010 at 1:50pm
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Well, I finally purchased the 727-100 2400 Base Pack. Overall I am pretty well satisfied. I have found that the advice and tweaks offered here by Mark, Lou and others to be quite helpful. My only problem so far is coordinating speed and flaps all the way down the glide slope. I have had only 3 landings so far and have had to disconnect the AP and hand fly all three from about half way down the GS. Not smooth and not pretty, but no crashes. Just screams from the back end! Seems almost impossible! I've tried to follow Lou's advice, 160kts approach & 125kts landing, or thereabouts.

A couple questions:

1.) How do you access the ACE feature?

2.) I can not figure out how to access many of the cabin, head, rear stairs and galley views that are shown in the product preview??

3.) The engine sounds are very weak in spot view. Can barely hear them even though I have the FSX slider pretty far right. Doesn't sound like any 727 I've been around.

4.) I have FSX sp2, but not Acceleration. Do I need any specific file mods or additions?

Thanks!

Bruce
  
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Markoz
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #1 - Mar 21st, 2010 at 12:31am
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Hi Bruce.

I'm not that good with coordinating speed and flaps either. I usually just add power as I lower the flaps.

1.) How do you access the ACE feature?
You will need to access this feature through clicking START/ALL PROGRAMS/CAPTAIN SIM/727 CAPTAIN/ACE.

2.) I can not figure out how to access many of the cabin, head, rear stairs and galley views that are shown in the product preview??
Just press "A" OR "Shift+A" to move through the views in the VC.

3.) The engine sounds are very weak in spot view. Can barely hear them even though I have the FSX slider pretty far right. Doesn't sound like any 727 I've been around.
Never noticed this. I'll have to check it out.

4.) I have FSX sp2, but not Acceleration. Do I need any specific file mods or additions?
You might need the "fix" for the Autopilot for FSX SP2 users, if you are having trouble with the AP PITCH HOLD, from Customer Support. Log into your profile and search the Knowledge base for #4897. That will give you instructions and a link to download the "fix".

Hope this helps.

Mark
  

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btscott
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #2 - Mar 21st, 2010 at 2:50am
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Mark - Many thanks! I'll get on those suggestions tomorrow. Never thought to look in All Programs.

Bruce
  
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JETPILOT
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #3 - Mar 21st, 2010 at 4:24am
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When joining the localiser on a ILS approach you want to be stabilised.. on speed, on altitude, on localiser. Depending on your distance from glideslope intercept you want your flaps set one notch below your final flap setting be it flaps 30 or flaps 40. Most landing are conducted at flaps 30 so set the flaps for 25 and be on your manouvering speed.

When the glideslope comes alive lower your gear. Upon intercepting the glideslope add your last notch of flaps and make small power adjustments for VPROG/VAPP speed. This will give you a stable approach which will just require small changes in power. Over the threshold reduce power for VREF speed and hold VREF until the flare. The only thing you will have to worry about will be staying on localiser on glidedlope and on speed.

I flew an ILS approach manually i nthe 747 and posted on youtube. You can watch how it's done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB4n8uCPh0I

  
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btscott
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #4 - Mar 21st, 2010 at 2:44pm
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JP - That is a great video! Clearly by someone who knows what he's doing!

I was IFR DEN to AMA using an FSX flt pln. ATC vectored me to intercept the localizer way out. I was level 160kts when I intercepted it. The ac weight was 112k, flaps were at 25 (I think). I slowed to 120kts for landing. when nose lifted above horizon I lowered flaps to 30. The power dipped below 120 so I increased throttle. The nose came down and the ac was above the GS and started to dive. After the second *PULL UP* I disconnected the AP and hand flew the landing from there on. I think I was too slow for the flap setting, but I also just now downloaded the pitch fix from CS.Will see if that helps.

I made a video of the landing. Would appreciate your critique.

http://www.vimeo.com/10322954

Thank you!

Bruce
  
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JETPILOT
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #5 - Mar 22nd, 2010 at 8:19am
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First... 112,000 pound landing weight in the 727 is unrealistic. Minimum landing fuel in the 727 is about 9000lbs depending on the companies SOP. You're tanks were empty. You also had no cargo or pax. 140-150,000 lbs is a normal landing weight.

The 727 uses what is called a TOLD card or Takeoff Landing Data Card. For landing the TOLD card dsiplays:

Landing weight
Go Around EPR
Minimum flap maneuvering speeds for each flap setting
VAPP Approach speed
VREF Landing speed

At 150,000 lbs your minumum manouvering speed will be 150 kts at flaps 15. Flaps 25 has a VREF speed only printed on the charts and is VREF 40 + 8kts. VREF 40 is 130kts + 8 = 138 kts minimum manouvering speeed for flaps 25. BUT use VREF speed if VAPP is higher than minimum flap manouvering speed for flaps 25. VREF for flaps 30 is 134kts. Add 10 kts to that for your approach speed VAPP and you have 144kts for your flap 30 VAPP.

You also have to add in your wind correction which is half the wind + all of the gust. If the landing wind is 10kts  gusting 15 then add 7.5 kts to your VAPP.

So recounting... At flaps 25 on localiser you should be at 144 kts. When the glideslope comes alive you lower the gear. Adjust power as necessary to maintain airspeed. Small changes. Nothing big. Once you have intercepted the glideslope add flaps 30. Adjust power to maintain VAPP/144kts. Again small changes and wait to see the results. Fly the localiser and glideslope making small corrections. You should be stabilised inside the outer marker.

Turn off the autopilot and try hand flying the approach. For some reason the AP did not intercept the glideslope. Also turn off the flight director as it wasn't working. You're pitch/power changes were too abrupt. You were not scanning the instruments or you would have made the corrections sooner. You need to develop a good instrument scan. On an ILS at 140kts you should see about a 750' per minute decent rate to maintain a 3 degree glideslope. You were totally ignoring the VSI. Also.... don't look out the window. That's cheating! Full scale deflection of the localiser or glideslope is a mandatory missed approach.

Flying these jets is no easy thing to do. You fly by the numbers. and you have to be on them. If you let the plane get ahead of you you are already out of the game. You were way behind the plane.

Nice landing though. I didn't see if you got the spoilers open or not. You also don't have to wait for the nose wheel to touch down to reverse. getthem into reverse as soon as the mains touch.

Now try adding checklists to the approach, radios communications and shooting the ILS down to minimums popping out at 200' in 1/2 mi vis with blowing snow, icy runway, winds 45kts gusting to 60 with a 15 kt crosswind in moderate turbulence after holding for 30 minutes in heavy icing.  Smiley

I remember going into CVG in heavy icing. We were told to hold and entered the hold. The Kitty Hawk 727 holding above us lost 2 engines after ingesting ice and declared an emergency. He went in before us and they had to tow him off the runway since he lost a system hydraulics for nosewheel steering. We were up there about 40 mi and picking up ice fast. They were reporting braking conditions poor. We landed without an issues I taxid into my parking spot and walked down the steps and as soon as my feet hit the ramp I fell on my tushy. There was about 1/2 an inch of freezing rain on the ground and that's when I got a good look at the tail which is not de-iced and there was about 6" of ice built up on the front of the stab leading edge. What a night that was.
  
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btscott
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #6 - Mar 22nd, 2010 at 1:14pm
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JP -

Thanks for the excellent critique. I understand most everything you said, but doing all this seems virtually impossible--especially for one person. I guess after years of proper training, practice and experience it becomes almost second nature. I can see mastering it (almost) in calm, fair weather; but how you folks managed in bad weather conditions is truly unbelievable. As a white knuckle pax I sweated many bad weather departures and arrivals since the early 60s. I distinctly remember the AA 727 crash at CVG and the UA 727 crash at SLC and others as well. I almost didn't want to ride on them for the first couple years, but that's mostly what everybody was using.

I didn't know how to access the ACE and add payload when I made that flt. I saw in the FSX Fuel & Payload editor that there were only the 3 crew listed. Since then I've added about 40k lbs and got the TO weight up to about 145+k lbs. I also printed out the performance charts for reference. I'll get better, but will probably never get it exactly right. Oh, actually the AP DID intercept the GS and but I disengaged and hand flew the landing (from about 1000 ft) when I got so far behind.

Btw, I cut the video short, but actually did have both the spoilers and reversers deployed after touch down. Also I notice that throttle response is much more controllable when taxiing than when airborne. Logically so, I suppose.

Thanks again for the help. I have saved and printed your comments.

Bruce
  
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LOU
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #7 - Mar 22nd, 2010 at 7:46pm
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Bruce,
Nice video!
JP's advice is good. If I recall on the -100 the max landing weight was 150,000#. Play around with landing weights of 130,000 or 125,000. Don't bother with the autopilot now, just get used to hand flying and try to keep the plane in trim as best you can with the fast trim problem. Don't use 40 degrees flap for normal landings - it's just too much drag!

Find an airport with a good size runway and make the weather good.

Tune in the ILS so you have DME.

You can make your own glide slope by using 300 feet per mile. Example: If you are 5 miles out you should be 1,500 feet above the ground. (5 X 300 = 1,500) This will keep you on a 3 degree G/S and allow you to look outside more.

On the real plane at about 125,000 pounds with flaps 30 on the glide slope we would use around 3,000 # FF per engine to keep VREF.
Make small adjustments as needed to keep the speed. I always found Fuel Flow easier to pick up in my scan than EPR.

As I have said in other posts and JP also says - don't rush the approach. Get set up for landing and get the feel of the plane. I know the trim is a pain, but practice using short hits to the joystick trim buttons to get the plane in trim. I am able to trim using the joystick for normal trim.

Check on your altitude each mile. Three miles out - 900 feet. Keep the VASI or PAPI happy. 2 RED - 2 WHITE is just fine for the 727. Widebody 747's and the like use 3 WHITE - 1 RED.

Keep your scan going!

As you near the runway, begin to look towards the far end of the runway. This should help improve your perspective, as it should make it easier to judge height and sink rate.

Don't chop the power, just slowly reduce thrust as you touch down. In your video of the 727 from the outside view, it looked like a firm landing. Keeping the thrust on as you flare should make a better landing. Being on speed is the key to landing the 727.

Use the SAVE command in FSX when you are set up well outside the marker and on speed. Then you can load that saved position and config to repeat one landing after another.

I noticed the stupid "DON'T SINK" voice during the approach below 1,000 feet until around 100 feet. I still have not found a way to fix this problem. The rest of the call outs were normal as the autopilot pushed over during the approach and caused in excess of 1,000 FPM descent rate. This could happen, and has in the real beast. That is why when the autopilot is connected you should ALWAYS have your hand on the yoke with the thumb ready to disconnect. When anything happens - FLY THE PLANE FIRST! Then you can fix the problem.

Lou
  

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btscott
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Re: New User Questions
Reply #8 - Mar 23rd, 2010 at 5:00am
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Lou -

Thanks for the reply and advice! Today I did a MIA MBJ flt and had the weight up where it should be about 145k---landed at 136k. The landing was somewhat less than perfect. Seems the localizer didn't line up the ac with the runway so I disconnected at the last minute and hand flew the landing. You see I had a date with an Air Jamaica stew and wasn't about to go around! As JP said-- it really should have been a go-around, but I don't do go arounds, especially right at cocktail hour---which it was here!!  Grin

Anyway here's the video. It's a might long at 12min, but there's some good interior cabin shots including a trip to the head!

http://www.vimeo.com/10368725

Although I already do some of your & JP's suggestions---a lot of what you said is sort of foreign. I will try to pick up on it though gradually. JP says don't look out the window! HUH?? I want to see where I'm going to die!

Thanks again for the feedback and flight training!

Bruce
  
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