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Speedbrake ineffective (Read 2465 times)
Schmid
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Speedbrake ineffective
Jun 7th, 2009 at 5:56pm
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I have made a few flights with this aircraft and I'm having some problems to reduce speed while on descent.

I have changed to SPD mode, reduced manually to, let's say 150 knots on MCP, activated speedbrakes and descend on a 1200 ft/min V/S. Of course I have VNAV disconnected so CDU speed does not influence.

There is no way to have the aircraft reduce its speed!

Someone else is also having this same problem?

Regards

Schmid
  

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Tim Capps
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #1 - Jun 7th, 2009 at 6:29pm
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The speed brake does not seem to have the dramatic effect it has on some add-ons but it does work.  I am not in a position to comment on realism.  I use Radar Contact for ATC and manage my descent so that speed is not really an issue down to 12000 feet.  From there you should have enough space to make your levels through 10,000 while keeping your speed no higher than 250 kts.

So speed management is really more a matter of good planning than trying to make up for it by throwing out metal.  Flight level changes are controlled by speed, so you could try that instead of the V/S.

I don't think your V/S rate cares about airspeed; I believe (but am not sure) it is just going to hit your descent rate.

Please someone with more familiarity correct me if I'm wrong.  I do know that I don't have any problems with speed management.  Maybe learning how to handle a slippery weasel like the MD-80 has given me a better handle on it.

When would you be expected to descend 1200 fpm at 150 knots?  At that speed you should be on approach, and not needing to shed altitude like that.
  

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Schmid
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #2 - Jun 7th, 2009 at 7:38pm
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Hi, Tim.

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe I was not very clear on my procedures.

The point is that I want to be at 150 knots at short final and usually, as you have said, you shall be at 240/250 knots below 10000 ft decreasing until final approach.

At this just moment I'm descending to UHMA with my thrust on idle and speedbrakes at full.

Airspeed is stuck on 300 knots in a smooth 3º descent (which is a common pattern) which is very unusual in comparison to other aircrafts (like 763 for example - that is quite similar to 752 in procedures).

This aircraft is not supposed to act as MD11, that automatically activates pitch protection so it reduces speed by putting aircraft nose up.

So vertical speed has everything to do with airspeed as if you dive at, lets say 3000 ft/min (the passengers will hate it), you will certainly experience overspeed.

Maybe I have to learn much more on this aircraft as its behaviour is completely different from the other add-ons I have.

Best regards

Schmid
  

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Tim Capps
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #3 - Jun 7th, 2009 at 8:45pm
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Hi Schmid (Mr. Schmid?)

What I meant was that in flight level change, it is my understanding that it will adjust pitch to maintain speed.  If you are crusing at 300 kts and descend by hitting that button, you will descend at a rate that does not alter your airspeed, bur rather your pitch.  You can steepen that descent with the speed brake, but the speed shouldn't change.  In other words, the controlling factor is airspeed, not descent rate.

With V/S, if you set it at at -3000 you are going to get get whatever speed you get at that rate of descent, and you will find yourself having to reduce your descent rate and/or employ brakes to keep your speed from running up (and, for example, busting your 250 kt limit).  So, yes, V/S can affect your speed incidentally to the descent, but it is different from flight level change in that descent is locked into your desired speed.  Contraiwise, in V/S the controlling factor is descent rate, not speed.  They're really opposite.

I usually descend using flight level change unless I am flying a full procedure without ATC, in which case I let VNAV handle the descent.  When I get further down and want to control my speed and descent more precisely myself, I use V/S.  Or, I'll switch to V/S, perhaps with speed brake, for a limited time to get down quicker when ATC wants me at a certain level within 30 miles.

Yes, a 3 degree glide slope is typical.  But going 300 kts while on that 3 degree glide slope is not.  You should not even be above 250 at that point, and, depending on where you are in the approach, a darned sight less than that.

Look at p. 31 of Part III of the manuals, Normal Procedures.  You should already be at Flaps 5 before you intercept the localizer.  That's your vref for flaps 30 + 40 kts.

Let's say you're coming in at a landing weight of 200,000 lbs.  According to p. 12 of Part IV of the manuals, your vref for flaps 30 is 133.  (Or look on your MCU.)  So you should be at 173 kts with flaps 5 when you intercept the localilzer (flaps 30 vref (which is 133) + 40 = 173).

It should not be a question of this add-on performing differently, but giving yourself plenty of space to slow down.  I am just having trouble imagining any circumstance where you would be on the 3 degree glideslope at anywhere near 300 kts.  I respectfully invite you to consider that this is the problem, not the way the speed brake works.

How far out from the runway threshold are you turning onto the extended centerline?  Why are you going 300 kts at the point?  I'm sorry if I'm not understanding your question, but I bet if you give yourself more room to slow down, you will find your speed problems disappear.

Are you following FS ATC, or what?

Tim
  

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Schmid
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #4 - Jun 7th, 2009 at 11:52pm
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Hello, Tim.

I'm 110% with you.

My point is that: CDU is definitely not reliable in fixing T/D and flight levels. I have posted a few messages on the specific topic.

As so, I have to use the 'rule of three' which is very 'amateur' for this aircraft to make my descent but, after all, it works.

Although I have enough room for slowing down speed, it seems engines do not 'react' to throttle idle setting and keep stuck on about 300 knots.

As a 'final solution' I will remove and reinstall the add-on. I don't think it will work but.... who knows?  Wink

Best regards

Schmid

  

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Tim Capps
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #5 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:25am
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Okay, so it is a matter of you not being able to get your engines to spool down from 300 kts?

That is weird.

What happens if you turn your AT off and just chop your throttles?  Are they still stuck?  Or is this just an AT thing?

If you can't get your speed reduced to below 300 knots, the last place you need to be is approaching a runway   Shocked  I suggest you fly around overhead until you run out of fuel and glide her in at a reasonable speed!
  

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Schmid
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 12:58am
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Hmmm.... no fuel damp? So, let's open another bottle until we run out of fuel...  Grin

Cheers

Schmid
  

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Tim Capps
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Re: Speedbrake ineffective
Reply #7 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 1:01am
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Grin After tearing around the country side at 2000 feet and 300 kts good luck finding a drop anywhere on board!
  

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