Were SIDs and STARs used in the days of the 727 and 707? If they were, how would you fly them? Would you have to find ones that could be tracked by the nav radios (VOR), or would ATC vector you? And with the 707, would you just use the doppler nav to fly the departure/arrival?

Thanks,
boeing247

look here. question number 6 :)
http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1318624697

well as for now, i've done some flying since october, its not hard to find intersection of VOR radials. little harder to find intersection of VOR-NDB, but you don't see it often. So its not hard at all if you fly STAR with VOR - VOR intersections. Much harder to fly say YMML STARS. they only got 3 fixes and 1 VOR-DME, so you gotta tie all waypoints to radials of ML VOR plus you gotta use some NDBs. So for every waypoint (ANBEL, VALES, etc) you gotta know bearing to BOL NDB + bearing(radial), and range to ML VOR\DME. you track NDB using RMI, and VOR on HSI. At each waypoint you will cross radial of ML VOR, so if you arriving STAR RNAV BOYSE 5 to land on rwy16, you gotta calculate radials and ranges for BOYSE, VALES, ANBEL, NEFER, BOL(NDB), + bearind to NDB written on map. see pic(graphics crappy but it'll give you idea). and as LOU said you gotta watch HSI,RMI and think fast ))

fly RNAV STARS by radioNAV - thats kinda lot of fun, but im not sure they did it so in 70s :)

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so you arriving BOYSE, then select radial 41 and fly hdg 245, and you'll know you at VALES then you cross radial41 of ML VOR. At that time you should be at 30 miles from ML VOR, and so on.

The most important part is to arrive to BOYSE. Simplest  way to do that, to arrive at radial 50 of ML VOR. So you'll know you at BOYSE then you at 45 miles from ML VOR\DME. the rest is pretty simple :)

all calculations not precise here. They'll just to give you idea of how to fly RNAVs.

MOST IMPORTANT, if you using maps without marker North\South - CHECK IT USING ANGLE TOOL. On pic above - North isnt up!!! its not hard to find 0-180 line on map like this using indicated headings (like BOYSE - VALES 245 deg)

Boeing 247, SIDs and STARs have always been around they have just become more complicated. They were developed to allow you to fly a procedural track to or from so ATC could just clear you that way and not have to positively control you. Mowdays with lots of different routes to and from places there a lot more outbound SIDs and inbound STARs thats all. Some a little tricky so you need to think ahead by reviewing the approach or departure before you start it by studying the chart. Say about 10 mins before top of descent and prior to take off.

Because the 707 and 727 do not have EFIS and FMS the easiest way to develop a picture of where you are, using for example the YMML STAR shown above is to have your VORs tuned to the same frequency same ML 114.10 and the VOR/ADF display on the bottom left of your panel selected for VOR (using the switches there) that way you will see the needle point to the station like an NDB does and you can flip over to the ILS on the number 1 NAV as and when required. The little dial and needle on the left will give you a picture as you are on the tail of the needle approaching and on the head departing. So what the tail of the needle is indicating inbound is the radial you are on at the time and the same for outbound but the head is showing you what radial you are on. Another way to picture it is to imagine your little aeroplane on the end of the needle inbound and on the head outbound. So you have a picture courtesy of that gauge of where you are in relation to the navaid selected. This is the way you also fly an arc procedure where you have to keep a constant turn about a VOR at a certain distance but the technique to do this is similar but needs further explanation - save that tale for another time. If you want to get an idea of all this take up the 727 or 707 and fly over a VOR or NDB then keep tracking out for another five minutes or so then do a 360 degree turn from your heading at rate 1 all the way back to the heading left or right and watch what the needle does as you do the turn. You will soon get the idea of what it is telling you imagining your on the tail of the needle.

Oh and I forgot, Doppler is a long range nav system only and you would always track via the primary aids for the airport concerned once you came into range of the relevant VOR or NDB. All ground based aids are regularly tested for accuracy and reliability and hence have fine tolerances, but airborne equipment like Doppler and INS is not considered accurate enough for precision and non precision approach work and hence you will never see a Doppler or INS instrument approach but modern GPS systems are different and are accurate and reliable enough to be used for precise instrument approaches.

Doppler and INS were fine over the ocean or long distance as ATC kept you a couple of thousand feet apart from aircraft above and below you and at least laterally by about 5 to 10 mins depending on the sector length. So you can see with that volume of airspace around you as a buffer off track errors could be tolerated (well up to a point). All professional pilots pride themselves on the accuracy of their navigation so your thinking about it and working on keeping on track and level at all times.

i guess old SIDs and STARs have more "real"  VORs intersections then modern. So they flyable by radio. modern charts too complicated for that :) it's realy hard to fly precisely by hand. and i usualy hand flying below 10 000 ft. anyway - that fun. long flights gives time to think of how to arrive, approach, land and so on.

CoastalDriver, in old times, do airports with complicated STARRs had 2 VOR\DME or its usual they had one plus several NDBs? 2 VOR\DME realy ease up arrival procedure.

and i guess that planes without GPS\FMS dont allow to fly RNAV STAR as i said in upper post? i guess they just directed to DME STAR?

So its cool for fun, and uncool in real world?

Thanks, that doesn't seem too hard. Though one question: how do you know which radial to put in? Should I use the ADF needle on the RMI?

boeing247 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2011 at 4:13pm:

...Though one question: how do you know which radial to put in? Should I use the ADF needle on the RMI?

IMO it's better to use HSI needle.

Pinatubo.

Pinatubo wrote on Dec 21^st, 2011 at 5:21pm:

boeing247 wrote on Dec 21st, 2011 at 4:13pm: ...Though one question: how do you know which radial to put in? Should I use the ADF needle on the RMI? IMO it's better to use HSI needle. Pinatubo.

No, I was asking how to determine the angle between a vor station and a waypoint, but I figured it out anyway.  ;)

:) yep. best way - to print map and use angle tool. I just landed in YMML and blown a tire :) Recently i bought FTX AU SP4, and while looking out of window on short final, lost control on speed a little :o BIG MISTAKE  ;D

CoastalDriver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2011 at 10:44am:

Oh and I forgot, Doppler is a long range nav system only and you would always track via the primary aids for the airport concerned once you came into range of the relevant VOR or NDB. All ground based aids are regularly tested for accuracy and reliability and hence have fine tolerances, but airborne equipment like Doppler and INS is not considered accurate enough for precision and non precision approach work and hence you will never see a Doppler or INS instrument approach but modern GPS systems are different and are accurate and reliable enough to be used for precise instrument approaches. Doppler and INS were fine over the ocean or long distance as ATC kept you a couple of thousand feet apart from aircraft above and below you and at least laterally by about 5 to 10 mins depending on the sector length. So you can see with that volume of airspace around you as a buffer off track errors could be tolerated (well up to a point). All professional pilots pride themselves on the accuracy of their navigation so your thinking about it and working on keeping on track and level at all times.

When I use my CIVA INS it allows me to enter VOR station data for position updating and increased accuracy. I though this type of technology fed right into the core of modern FMS equipment.

Oh well, I still plug all the lat long co-ords on a STAR chart into my INS when I need RNAV in the 727.

Arrivals with older, non INS, IRS, GPS aircraft - The way it used to be!  :P

Lets have a look at a standard arrival into KJFK using the CAMRN arrival.
This is a pretty simple arrival. Look at the lower part of the arrival plate.
It has a written summery of the arrival. This arrival has only one bend in the route.
In the graphic display you can see how to set up the NAV radios for this arrival.

Your high altitude routing would get you to Sea Isle (SIE) VOR.
The arrival starts on the 049 degree radial out of SIE 114.8
Set SIE in the pilot flying NAV radio. The distance to BOTON is 25 DME.
You could also set the 124 degree radial of ACY in the other VOR and when the needle centers you are at BOTON - DME is easier, but if for some reason the DME was inop, you could still check the BOTON intersection.

The next intersection is HOGGS. It is 13 more DME on the 049 degree radial of SIE. See the box around 38? They even do the math for you.
HOGGS could also be figured by the 162 degree radial of CYN VOR.
HOGGS has an EXPECT to cross restriction of FL180. So if you are doing this arrival the old fashion way, you would need to figure the rate of descent to make the crossing at HOGGS. 3X the altitude, depending on wind will normally work.

So for example if you cross SIE at FL250 and are cleared to 11,000 you would need to adjust your descent rate to cross HOGGS at FL180 and still plan CAMRN at 110 & 250. The difference between your altitude at SIE - FL250 and HOGGS FL180 is 7,000 feet. 3X7=21. You need about 21 miles without drag and at idle to make the altitude change. You have 38 miles, so it should be easy to accomplish.

The only hooker is if ATC gives you a slower speed for traffic, then you might need to whine, or just use a little speed brake.  ;D

Assuming the DME is working, you can stay on SIE all the way to KARRS. Now you have to switch VOR frequency to 117.7 DPK and adjust the OBS to 041 degrees (or the 221 degree radial out of DPK) to make CAMRN at 53 DME.

Normally as you approach CAMRN you would be switched to approach at KJFK and get radar vectors for the approach.

Simple!  ;)

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/768/camrn.gif




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Way to go LOU, and yep the PNF did all the radio twiddling for you so it worked smoothly if not quickly. Ah just love the simplicity of a 3x profile, works every time.