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727 Captain >> 727 Captain >> Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
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Message started by Aeroporc on Aug 6th, 2011 at 9:35am

Title: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Aeroporc on Aug 6th, 2011 at 9:35am
Hello, how to climb and hold an altitude ?

I don't can clim or descent with Ap, just in manual

Thanks

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by LOU on Aug 9th, 2011 at 2:13am
Aeroporc,

This information is covered in the manual, but I'll give you a quick look at the 727-100 autopilot.



This is a break down of the areas of the 727-100 autopilot.

From left to right:

Autopilot Mode selector- [ 1 ] allows you to select manual mode which is where the switch is in this picture, or you can select the three radio modes called:

NAV/LOC - this mode will track a VOR radial or the localizer part of the ILS.

AUTO G/S - automatic capture of ILS. You must capture the LOC first and then capture the G/S from below.

MAN G/S - forced capture of the ILS

Next is pitch and roll.- [ 2 ] The knob turns left and right to roll the plane in a turn, and the knob also can pivot up and down to control the pitch of the plane. The roll and pitch is controlled by using the mouse. When you mouse over the control, a hand appears and by pushing the mouse button you can drag the knob left or right to turn the plane. Also, when you place the mouse over the narrow front of the knob and make short taps on the mouse button the pitch will change. This requires very small taps of the mouse button otherwise you will OVER control the pitch and loose control of the plane. You can observe the ADI and watch the pitch change as you make small taps of the mouse button. You can also look for a mouse over message that will show you the pitch change. Place your mouse on the aft or fat part of the knob and make a short tap of the left button (see picture below). This will cause the pitch to increase. The line through the knob shows the pivot point. The double headed arrow line is trying to show that the knob can pivot on that axis. This takes some practice and is some times a royal pain to use, but it was a pain in the real plane as well. The latter autopilot in the 727-200 has a pitch wheel which works much better.

Aileron Paddle - �[ 3 ] engages the aileron channel of the autopilot. You can engage just the aileron channel of the autopilot and control the pitch with the yoke.

Elevator Paddle - �[ 4 ] controls the pitch channel of the autopilot. Will not engage unless the aileron paddle is engaged. Engaging these paddles turns on the autopilot. You can manually pull the paddles off, or hit the yoke disconnect button [Z]. If you pull the ELEV paddle off the AIL channel will stay engaged. If you pull the AIL paddle off the whole autopilot turns off.

ATL HOLD - �[ 5 ] engages the altitude hold part of the autopilot. The autopilot will attempt to hold the altitude at the time the switch is turned on. If you are climbing or descending when you flip the switch the autopilot will go through a few pitch oscillations before it settles down. Try to be level, or at a very small reading on the IVSI before turning on this switch.

HDG SEL - �[ 6 ] only works in manual mode. It follows the heading bug in the Captain's HSI.

HYD Selector - �[ 7 ] allows you to control which hydraulic system the autopilot uses to control pitch. The A-B position is used to supply a redundant source of hydraulic power for an autopilot approach.



I hope this helps. It takes a bit of trial and error to get the results you want. Use the autopilot and play with the various modes until you get a comfort zone.

Lou

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by Markoz on Aug 9th, 2011 at 5:27am
Lou.

Do you ever use the 2D Autopilot Panel? I always seems to have trouble when trying to use the Pitch up/down (#2 on 2nd Pic). I usually accidentally add left or right banking to it when I'm only wanting to trim the pitch. This is the main reason I use the 2D Autopilot Panel.

Mark

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by Aeroporc on Aug 9th, 2011 at 3:07pm
Thanks a lot LOU, i try tonight, the Autopilot of the 727 is difficult for a new pilot !



Thanks !

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by LOU on Aug 9th, 2011 at 3:15pm
Mark,

I only use the 2D autopilot and place it at the top corner of my display - out of the way.

As for using the turn knob, even it the real plane it was a pain to use. Most pilots used heading select to drive the plane around, or hit the little red button on the yoke and hand fly the plane. The 727 was a very nice plane to hand fly, all you needed to do was keep it in trim. In the traffic pattern or on vectors the plane was easy to fly. At cruise speed it was not as much fun since it was too pitch sensitive and you would make the passengers go weeeeeeee! ;D

Lou

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by CoolP on Aug 9th, 2011 at 4:19pm
Me likes weeeeeeee. ;D
You can always scream 'I'm just following the charts!' to the paying payload then.  :P

Great read about the AP, Lou. CS should make that sticky or add it to the KB, or both.

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by Aeroporc on Aug 9th, 2011 at 6:29pm
Thanks a lot !!!!

Lou, you're Tutorial is very good, i use the AP in 2D only, because in the virtual cokpit is difficult.

Okay, I can fly now !

My biggest wish.

Vincent,

Title: Re: Auto-Pilot
Post by asanal on Aug 10th, 2011 at 3:53pm
Lou,
Thank you.It is an excellent information.You are a "Good" teacher.
Sanal

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by wsciutti on Nov 1st, 2011 at 3:55pm
Hi Lou,
I've been away for a time but am enjoying(?) the 'three holer' again.

Have some time as FE with TWA many moons ago and my time (usually on furlough) was limited to 727,707 out of JFK/LGA.

Do have 'Buff' time, over 2000 you know where.

Thanks for the insights.

Jack S.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on Nov 1st, 2011 at 7:15pm
Jack S.,

Welcome back to the "Pig."

This is a fun airplane to fly and do takeoffs and landings.

Lou TWA- 680503

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by TRaiteri14 on Jan 16th, 2012 at 10:50am
I need help on the NAV/LOC I put the AP on that mode but I can't see to get it on my route I'm using manual heading just to stay on it (which isn't a big deal but I would like the NAV/LOC to act like a NAV/GPS. haha

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Antonio P on Feb 27th, 2012 at 12:18am
Hi Lou:

And how did you flied Holding patterns? Using the turning knob, the heading select or by hand? If using turning knob how did you proceeded?

Regards.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Berlopez on May 27th, 2012 at 7:03pm
After no having used the 727-100 for a while.I just attempted a flight.All was well until the controllers of various control tower along the route began to contact me to adjut repeatedly the alt. press. in order to maintain mycrising alt.10.000ft. Using the "B" key only moved the numbers a twitch, so by enlarging and clicking with the mouse I got as close possible...This didn't help either...Only Control kept on contacting me to adjust.Finally; I got fed up and dumpped the flight. Has there been an update/editting on autopilot,lately that I haven't seen?This is my Autopilot section in my Panel.cfg file:
[Window03]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=447,106
position=2
visible=0
ident=10005
gauge00=Captain_Sim.p721.P12!P12_001_ap, 20,0, 427,106
gauge01=Cessna!Nav_GPS_Annunciator, 0,0,20,20
gauge02=Cessna!Nav GPS Switch, 0,20,20,20


berlopez

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Berlopez on May 27th, 2012 at 7:08pm
I am unable to maintain altitude and the controllers keep contacting me to adjust altimeter setting constantly  >:( Even though I press the "B" key and check the numbers they're close then I adjuts using the mouse.They keep on contacting me. It's a nuisance!All I've done to the a/p is add the GPS gauge as itwas added back then. Hereis my a/p section in the panel.cfg file:

[Window03]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=447,106
position=2
visible=0
ident=10005
gauge00=Captain_Sim.p721.P12!P12_001_ap, 20,0, 427,106
gauge01=Cessna!Nav_GPS_Annunciator, 0,0,20,20
gauge02=Cessna!Nav GPS Switch, 0,20,20,20

Has there been an update or amI missing something?

Berlopez

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on May 27th, 2012 at 8:06pm
I guess your talking about adjusting the altimeter for local pressure.
When you fly for a long flight - more than a 100 miles the weather will change and I guess there times that even in short flights through weather systems the pressure could change enough to make a big enough difference that would cause ATC to alert you to up-date the altimeter. In Europe, when you fly above the transition level you set standard pressure - 29.92 inHG / 1013 hPa. Below this level or in the U.S. below FL180 you set local station pressure.

Every 28 feet = 1 hPa 8-)

If you adjust the altimeter and now the new reading is 100 feet different you need to turn off altitude hold, adjust the altitude up or down as needed using the pitch knob ( I know it's sensitive ) and when at the proper level re-engage altitude hold.

I hope that helps, if not
pour yourself a nice Grand Marnier
and just do a little "Free Flight" Bernardo

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/851/drinkb.png

Lou ;)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Berlopez on May 28th, 2012 at 7:53pm
Hi Lou: (Hick)...I think the reason I was having all those calls, was I was using a saved flight and downloading real Weather on top of it ??? I'm not 100% certain of this.

I just reflew the flight had terrible difficulties loading the 727 from start.So I loaded the default 737-800... I'm Loading FSx with AlacrityPC Which a member at the avsim forums helped me install.When I reached my cruise alt. I changed to the 727 and continued the flight. All went very well. It behaved itself; Upon landing at Hamburg ( Hamburg airport ILS RWY 5 it went by the book! :)

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/berlopez/th_2012-5-28_21-14-41-496.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/berlopez/th_2012-5-28_21-15-50-500.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/berlopez/th_2012-5-28_21-23-50-674.jpg



Berlopez ;D





Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on May 28th, 2012 at 9:03pm
Some how I missed a post from Antonio P... I am sorry! :(

The question was: And how did you flied Holding patterns? Using the turning knob, the heading select or by hand? If using turning knob how did you proceeded?

Antonio, most pilots used the heading select. Some would use the turn knob as well. Hand flying in a holding pattern was a pain! :o

The heading select was the best for me. You could get the orientation from the chart and if you knew the wind you could apply a correction right from the beginning, or take a turn in the pattern and figure the wind drift and then make the correction.

Sorry again for the tardy reply!

Lou :-[

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 15th, 2014 at 5:40am
Hi Lou
I have been practicing landings for a few weeks and I'm trying to keep from porpoiseing in the glide slope. Is there any good technique to stop this from happening. Auto GS is the worst for this condition at KJFK. I am pretty sure I am low enough to be under the GS when I capture it. The manual GS usually keeps me at -700 fpm on descent which is what I want. I am starting at 1500 alt and about 8 or 9 miles out from rwy 22R. Any suggestions would be helpful. :-/

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on Jun 15th, 2014 at 8:07pm
I'm not sure why you are having this problem in AUTO G/S and not in MAN G/S. Once you are on the glide slope switching from AUTO to MAN should not make any difference. Once you are on the glide slope in either mode the dynamics are the same.

One thing that will cause pitch changes is thrust changes. Since this is old school flying there is no auto-thrust so you need to be aware to make smooth & slow changes to power as you capture the G/S. If you are level and doing about 150 kts with flaps 15 approaching the glide slope, as the glide slope comes alive, select gear down. As the G/S is around one dot above, flaps 30 and keep an eye on the speed. The speed bleed to approach speed of let's say 125 to 130 kts should work out just right to see the plane pitch down as the G/S is captured. Make small corrections to the thrust to keep the approach speed of 130 to 125 kts.

The main difference in the 727 and the newer planes (767, 777) is the size of the fan part of the engine. A very small physical movement of the thrust levers on the big fan planes gives you a large thrust change. You may find you will move the thrust levers more distance on the 727 to obtain the desired thrust change. Still, you need to make small actual thrust changes to avoid a pitch change.

I just flew the 727 through several autopilot approaches and even when I was a bit fast with the power changes the plane did pretty well holding the G/S. Try hand flying the plane through a series of approaches just using raw data from the ADI to hold the G/S (no autopilot) and see how power changes affect the ability to keep the plane on the glide slope. Get the plane on about an eight to ten mile final at the proper approach altitude with flaps 15 and around 150 knots. Save the position/flight so you can repeat the approach over and over until your happy with your performance.

Keep us informed about your progress.... 8-)

Lou

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by BrianG on Jun 16th, 2014 at 1:09am

Fly from Portland wrote on Jun 15th, 2014 at 5:40am:
Hi Lou
I have been practicing landings for a few weeks and I'm trying to keep from porpoiseing in the glide slope. Is there any good technique to stop this from happening. Auto GS is the worst for this condition at KJFK. I am pretty sure I am low enough to be under the GS when I capture it. The manual GS usually keeps me at -700 fpm on descent which is what I want. I am starting at 1500 alt and about 8 or 9 miles out from rwy 22R. Any suggestions would be helpful. :-/


I had porpoising with the 727 A/P pilot as well. Are you using SP2 or are you running Acceleration? When I reinstalled FSX I changed from SP2 to Acceleration and the porpoising problems completely stopped and the AP has been very smooth since. But, as Lou pointed out, incorrect throttle usage can also cause this problem. If you're running SP2 and not Acceleration, that could be the problem. But regardless of SP2 or Acceleration, throttles must be managed with finesse while on GS capture. Just a little insight for you.

cheers,
Brian

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 16th, 2014 at 1:41pm
Thanks for the help
I use Acceleration, so my problem was throttle control, now resolved.
Last question for Lou, Rwy 22R the approach to the runway is right to left and it wants to land off to the left on the grass. Instruments keeps the centerline to the left, so do I disconnect AP  before threshold to stay centered? Heading is 222 degrees, according to SimPlate, seems right. ::)
Marc

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on Jun 16th, 2014 at 5:07pm
Marc,

RW 22L where? KJFK?

Anyway, as you know, this is NOT an auto-land plane so you must disconnect and hand fly the plane to a landing. Not sure why the ILS or Plane wants to be off the centerline, but I have seen that before and it was some ad-on scenery I had that was not correct.

The heading that you would put in the HSI window will not cause this as the ILS does not use this information like the VOR. If you put in the wrong heading, the autopilot sees that as a crosswind.

I have acceleration installed.

Lou

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 16th, 2014 at 5:52pm
Hi Lou
Yes it is at KJFK, and I do disconnect prior to landing, it is just my timing on this. I have done more practice and I am almost there on the centerline. Do not have any add-on scenery, so that is not an issue.
I think I just have to follow thru on the landing after disconnecting to watch I stay on centerline. Will watch my indicators closely next time and the heading. Have noticed the centerline on different parts of runway has different degrees, so not so easy. :-?
Marc

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Markoz on Jun 17th, 2014 at 2:17am
I'm bad. I disconnect the A/P at arpund 200 feet AGL and fly it the rest of the wsy. I rarely have any trouble with it holding the ILS and it aligning with the centre of the runway.

I have FSX Acceleration too.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 17th, 2014 at 4:10am
Hi Mark
Try Rwy 22R at KJFK and see if you can hold the centerline, or tell me why I am having trouble with it, I get to the runway ok, then when I go into reverse thrusters I start to veer off. Tough to hold it straight.  :o
Marc

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:31pm
Anybody want to tell me why the LOC freqs at KLGA do not work on FSX.
Especially rwy04, 110.50. NO DME, nothing. :P

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 19th, 2014 at 2:36am
Okay, I was able to intercept the LOC tonight, still no DME. Guess that might be something that doesn't always happen for the LOC. Happy Landing.  ;D

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Markoz on Jun 19th, 2014 at 10:36am
In Australia, most LOC are not DME. I'm disappointed in it, but it might be like that in real life, so ... it is what it is. :(

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Fly from Utah on Jun 19th, 2014 at 9:15pm
Thanks Mark
Now I know in this aircraft to use the VOR freq  of the airport in the 2nd Nav radio for my DME. I think this should work to know how far out I am from runway. :)

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by AZI on Jul 21st, 2014 at 8:22am
Thanks a lot  :) .

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by DontSync on Oct 7th, 2015 at 8:56am
Good tutorial  :)

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Haseen on Jul 11th, 2016 at 3:09pm
Dear: During climb after takeoff the pitch up of 727-100 was around 10 deg. But when I engaged AP, the pitch angle goes down and the plane becomes uncontrollable. I have to disengage AP, fly for sometime manually and then again engage AP, after that it becomes okay. Why at first attempt nose is going down?

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by David Paul on Jul 12th, 2016 at 8:21am
Are you using the flight director?   I get a nosedive if I have the flight director on when I first activate the autopilot!

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Haseen on Jul 12th, 2016 at 9:12am
David:

Yes, I am using FD, preset pitch up 11 deg.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by David Paul on Jul 12th, 2016 at 5:34pm
Try it without the flight director.  Make sure the plane is trimmed and it should hold pitch when you turn on the AP.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by Haseen on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:36am
Dear David:

The actual procedure is to preset take off pitch with FD... Is that a bug in CS727 v2.7? Are they going to correct it?

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by David Paul on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:56pm
Perhaps it was fixed in SP 2.7, but it has been a longstanding issue, at least for me.   If I use the FD on takeoff and engage the AP after trimming, I get a nose-dive.  Without the FD, I do not get a nosedive.

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by TexanAviate on Aug 4th, 2017 at 5:29pm
Lou, your tutorial is a life saver my friend. I was able to shoot my very first ILS landing in the 727! Love it love it!  ;D

Title: Re: Autopilot use - tutorial by Lou
Post by LOU on Oct 8th, 2017 at 4:32pm
Thank you, glad it made your flying the 727 all the more fun!
It was a great plane to fly!!!

Lou

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