So there I was on climb out of Singapore and the 70 starting bouncing, the yoke in the VC was oscillating backwards and forwards - spot view showed the elevator up and down in full deflection. Now I know I was flying a Qantas livery but I didn't order a kangaroo!

I pulled back on my yoke but there was no change - removed mappings in FSUIPC but still no change - ended up having to abort the flight, which is always disappointing. Any ideas as to what caused it?

hmmm, so no-one else has experienced this?

Can you reproduce that flight and the things happening there or was this a one time special?
Could well be weather related, if some new data was injected to fast and with abnormal values.

It could also happen, if your CG is out of a flyable line, so the fuel load and balance of the plane is important to look at.

CoolP:
The behavior described by Balus exists.

I use the Saitek panels and throttle. Yoke and pedals are ChProducts. It happens on occasions when trimming the airplane, and usually occurs within between 0 and 1500 ft.  rate of climb, negative or positive. If I continue rotating the trim wheel (Saitek wheel or the 707 AP pitch trim wheels) the oscillations dampen and eventually cease. Rotating the wheels in the opposite direction may induce the oscillations again. I have not been able to associate it with any particular flight or flying conditions. Weight and balance do not seem to be a factor. A saved flight may do it on some occasions and not on others.

The problem occurs with the original Saitek drivers as well as with the SPAD beta drivers.

Windows 7, 36 bit

It doesnt happen in my 707 flights. I believe:

a) Either its a joystick drive related problem (dont think so)
b) Its the way you are flying the plane.

When it happens, are you using autopilot?
Ive experienced this effect a few times on other paywares, and it was usually cause I had it configured it incorrectly.
K

I was flying with AP on at the time - CH yoke and pedals, registered FSUIPC. I was adjusting pitch at the time so perhaps that is the issue - will try it again when I get a chance - unfortunately SP2 for the A300 has just been released so I'll be flying that for the next few days :)

balus wrote on Jan 15^th, 2011 at 8:22am:

I was flying with AP on at the time - CH yoke and pedals, registered FSUIPC. I was adjusting pitch at the time so perhaps that is the issue - will try it again when I get a chance - unfortunately SP2 for the A300 has just been released so I'll be flying that for the next few days :)

The 707-300 does NOT use FSUIPC. So FSUIPC cannot be the cause of any problems with the 707-300.

From Support KB#5937:
Q: I have problems with using FSUIPC and your 707 Captain.

A: 707 Captain does not use FSUIPC so we do not support any issues with FSUIPC.

I'll probably be taking the A300 up for a few flights because of the SP2 update as well. :o

Mark

I have the same problem as you Balus...on autopilot and then when you disconnect the A/P, it persists....if you go to external view, the elevators are "flapping" up and down as if they were trying to give the aeroplane some extra boost!   :D

It is possible, CH yoke needs calibration. During the climb, A/P on, when elevatosr starts to flapping, Move yoke slowly forward, if is getting worse, then pull yoke slowly toward to you  until flapping stops.
That is how I solved the same problem

This has happened to me every time I've manually adjusted the trim whilst the AP is engaged, so I guess it's just a feature of the aircraft; I just switch to altitude hold until the 'plane levels out then everything's OK and I can continue with the climb.

>^..^<

Capt. Haddock wrote on Jan 19^th, 2011 at 10:18am:

This has happened to me every time I've manually adjusted the trim whilst the AP is engaged, so I guess it's just a feature of the aircraft; I just switch to altitude hold until the 'plane levels out then everything's OK and I can continue with the climb. >^..^<

Well, there you have the answer then:
You should never touch the trim with autopilot engaged...its fighting one against the other.
If autopilot is engaged, IT controls-adjusts trim.
I can imagine strange thing would happen if you touch the trim with AP engaged, (Ive never even tried it), nor thought someone would, so the bouncing could well be because of that.

Another example: Its like switching autopilot altitude hold, and then try and climb or descend..."why would you do that ???" its common sense, (no need for a pilot licence on this one) either its autopilot or manual, if its autopilot..DONT TOUCH stabilizers.

The 707 bounces on the runway + taxiways, someone posted a fix to the contact points,but the plane still bounces ,is there another fix thankyou.

It is, like the aircraft has the hickups! I have the same experiense.

In another reply to a question like this, I said I have not experienced this in FSX. That has not changed. However, I did say that I had  experienced it in FS9 (FS2004) at Melbourne, Moorabbin - YMMB. I don't know what the cause of it is.

Where (what airport/gate) is this happening? If I start a flight there I can see if it happens to me too.

Mark

It did happen to me, but the contact point change fixed it.

Whenever I changed view, it would bounce as if it had just been placed there.

Kapitan wrote on Jan 20^th, 2011 at 12:13am:

Well, there you have the answer then: You should never touch the trim with autopilot engaged...its fighting one against the other. If autopilot is engaged, IT controls-adjusts trim. I can imagine strange thing would happen if you touch the trim with AP engaged, (Ive never even tried it), nor thought someone would, so the bouncing could well be because of that. Another example: Its like switching autopilot altitude hold, and then try and climb or descend..."why would you do that ???" its common sense, (no need for a pilot licence on this one) either its autopilot or manual, if its autopilot..DONT TOUCH stabilizers.

Ok, I am now confused. My understanding of the 707 is that it will not do the equivalent of an ALT SEL and that you need to adjust pitch to climb to the appropriate altitude. Now if I am flying a flightplan entered either via the INS or through the FS flightplan load then I need to have the AP on. Have I misunderstood something?

BTW I just tried another flight with the same result - this aircraft unfortunately is becoming unflyable for me - back to the A300, which doesn't exhibit this sort of behaviour.

Hi balus.

Are you using the Pitch Trim Wheels (enclosed green squares in the image) on the Autopilot (2D and/or 3D VC gauge) to adjust the climb/descent attitude? That's what they are there for. I use them all the time for controlling the 707 during the climb and descent phase.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv58/Markoz958/707Autopilot.jpg

Mark

yes Mark that is what I am using - sometimes they are animated, sometimes they are not.

BTW my A300 flight was a complete success :)

perhaps my dumbest post of the day, but have you tried disconnecting the ap elevator control? It's to the left of the autopilot control window.

I assume you have, but that's my best guess as I can't reproduce the issue.

Collin Biedenkapp,
President, TFDi Design, Captain Sim Beta Tester
http://www.tfdidesign.com
1-872-216-8334 (our company number)

balus wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 11:32am:

So there I was on climb out of Singapore and the 70 starting bouncing, the yoke in the VC was oscillating backwards and forwards - spot view showed the elevator up and down in full deflection. Now I know I was flying a Qantas livery but I didn't order a kangaroo! I pulled back on my yoke but there was no change - removed mappings in FSUIPC but still no change - ended up having to abort the flight, which is always disappointing. Any ideas as to what caused it?

For those who experience problems!
You should never play around with the flight controls, when the autopilot is engaged. If you do that you will disturb the system and it can result in errors.
I have experience in the real world 707, and I fly the Captain Sim 707 just like I did with the real thing. And I have no problems what so ever!
It is working perfectly fine... Maybe its something you guys are doing wrong, I don't know. But I don't have any problems at all. It works absolutely perfect for me.

I had this happen on my last flight in the 707.  I was climbing through FL280 for FL300, and was adjusting the A/P pitch controls downwards, in preparation for the top of my climb.  The plane suddenly started porpoising through the air, with the elevators deflecting full up and down, rapidly.  I immediately disconnected the elevators from the A/P, and stabilized the aircraft manually.  When I attempted to reconnect the A/P for altitude hold, the plane suddenly and violently pitched upwards, (we're talking 6000fpm of upward pitch) and stalled.

I know I saw a thread somewhere that addressed this problem, but my 707 seems to do alot of bouncing when you switch views, any ideas or point me to that thread I can't find?

Couple of notes, FSX has always been a performance killer and I have been out of the loop for about 3 years...my new I7 2600K with my GTX 580 seems to do the trick (and I have not overclocked it yet).  I bought the 727 and 707 and the expansion packs for FSX (had the 2004 version years ago) and I cannot get over how great they both look and fly...even if I am only using the keyboard at this point!  The install and verification system Captain Sim is using is heads and shoulders above what it was years ago as well.  I can't wait to eventually see these babies in 3d and down the road have full immersion 180 wrap around goggles or the Jdome...  I can put the 727 down in a parking lot, but the 707...two words to describe her....NEED ROOM   ;D

boeing727223,

Get a joystick! Then you will really see how nice both these planes fly.
Your I7 and GTX make a good system to run FSX.
The 707 will take a few more feet than the 727 in rollout, but you ain't seen nothing 'til you try to stop the Whale (747).

I'll let Mark or CoolP advise you on you jumping jacks.

Lou

Thanks Lou!  I have a Jetliner yoke, pedals, and quadrant with the 2, 3, and 4 engines..but I bought them 10 years ago so I need to get a seriel PCI card since PFC said they can't be converted to USB.  

Yup, the 727 is solid, but if ever not getting behind the power curve applied to any aircraft...the 707 is Queen (behind the 747).  I ended up dumping a 321B into San Francisco bay last night.....keyboard has got to go!!   ;)

I'm not gonna complain because a buddy of mine flew the DC-8 sim at UPS in Kentucky and the 707 is a Cadillac (keep it in trim), but the DC-8 is a Mack truck with no powersteering!  You have to be miles and sunshine ahead of that bird!!

boeing727223 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2011 at 7:52pm:

Thanks Lou!  I have a Jetliner yoke, pedals, and quadrant with the 2, 3, and 4 engines..but I bought them 10 years ago so I need to get a seriel PCI card since PFC said they can't be converted to USB.   Yup, the 727 is solid, but if ever not getting behind the power curve applied to any aircraft...the 707 is Queen (behind the 747).  I ended up dumping a 321B into San Francisco bay last night.....keyboard has got to go!!   ;) I'm not gonna complain because a buddy of mine flew the DC-8 sim at UPS in Kentucky and the 707 is a Cadillac (keep it in trim), but the DC-8 is a Mack truck with no powersteering!  You have to be miles and sunshine ahead of that bird!!

It it doesn't work out with your hardware, I recommend the Saitek Pro Flight yoke, throttle quadrants, and their rudder pedals.  You comments on the 707 and DC-8 handling remind of a conversation with my father-in-law.  In his experience, he says the 757 flies like a truck, while the 767 is like a Cadillac, and is much lighter on the controls.  

boeing727223 wrote on Apr 20^th, 2011 at 7:22pm:

I know I saw a thread somewhere that addressed this problem, but my 707 seems to do alot of bouncing when you switch views, any ideas or point me to that thread I can't find?

Hi.

I think this is the thread (Topic) here: http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1294399965.
I'm sure I saw that the fix for this problem was something to do with changing the contact points in the aircraft.cfg. I can't remember if it was for the 707 or for another Captain Sim aircraft.

Mark

Yeah audiohavoc, I will go that way if I can't get my old rig up and running...

Thanks Markoz, I notice that the problem seems to be when I change views and sometimes airport vehicles do the same....727 seems to be no problem....I hope I didn't just jinx myself!   ;)

I still can't get them to stop hopping up and down, and i can't do much as sit on the tarmac with them without this!  Any more suggestions? I already tried teh reinstall of teh E-3 and VC-137.

Again, my problems are on the ground. I can't get a fix.

Where in the FSX is this happening (airport(s))? Is it any airport in FSX or just a certain area?

Mark

Anywhere in the world, my 707 lurches up and down while on the ground only.

ANy help?

I posted this: http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1215554144/340#340 in the 757 Captain Forum in regards to the violent rocking and rolling problem. You can try it with the 707 base pack and expansion models. It might help.

Mark

Tried it before.

Hi all,

I am a new user of your fine 707 (Fsx).
I am pleased with the aircraft so far but there is one really annoying problem:
When during climb or descend under AP control (with the altitude hold/elevator disconnect switch in the middle position) I use the TRIM WHEEL of the AP  to change the climb/descent rate the plane begins
to PITCH UP AND DOWN , sometimes very lightly only and sometimes very heavily , so that I have to disconnect the elevator completly. (btw manual trim seems also much too sensitive)

Before posting I have made a research in this forum.
The problem has already be signaled by other people, but there is no solution given.
For example in this thread:
http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1294399965/0

Would be grateful to have a solution for this annoying problem.

Guy

The topic that you point to, the main thing that came to me from that was that it appears to have something to do with Joystick/Yoke causing the problem. If you have a Joystick/Yoke, disable it (the default keyboard shortcut is CTRL+K), then use the Pitch Trim Wheels on the A/P to see if that stops it from happening.

Is it possible that it could have something to do with the Sensitivity/Null Zone settings that you have in FSX?

Mark

Hi,

I followed your advice and disabled the joystick. That changed nothing.
The pitch oscillations are still there.
So it's not a joystick noise problem.
It is also not a center of gravity problem as I use ACE for initialisation.

To be absolutly clear: the problem exist's only when the altitude hold/elev.diconnect switch
is in the middle position (use of AP trimwheel).

I tried to follow the problem a bit more closely during three short flights now, climbing
each time to 35000 feet.

1)The pitch oscillations are there each time I use the trimwheel but generally they are
very light only and not disturbing.

2)During the 3 climbs I ended up three times with very heavy up and down shaking. Two times
I had moved the trim wheel and once it started all by itself (without changing wind conditions).

3)the wild pitch oscillations start EACH time when I INITIATE THE DESCENT from cruise altitude (35000 ft) by
positionning the altitude hold switch from the upper to the middle postion (even without touching
the trimwheel). So this is REPRODUCABLE (at least for me)
I cannot use this middle position (trimwheel) as long as I am above 30000 feet during descent.
So I have to move the switch to the lower position (elevator disconnect) and control the descent
manually.
Below 30000 feet I can then use the trimwheels again.

4)during descents I got the wild oscillations also 3 times while moving the trimwheel and once
it started all by itself again (also without changing wind)

By "wild pitch oscillations" I mean that the plane would have run completly out of control.
When I disconnect then the elevator control   it goes into a steep dive or climb .
I  have to stabilise it manually before reconnecting the elevator.

Otherwise I like the beautiful model, the nice VC and the easy manual flying.

Guy

I am interested in this "bouncing" problem when on the ground. Can you tell me if it does this constantly, or just now and again? The reason I ask is that I have experienced something similar to this, but it isn't restricted to the CS 707. It also happens with the Flight1 Mustang. However, I believe that the problem is caused by slow loading times. The 707 and Mustang are complex aircraft, and if you are sat at a detailed airport, the sim has to load lots of stuff (textures, models, terrain textures if you are using high res photoscenery, high resolution mesh etc). I suspect that all of this loading causes the sim to "reset the mesh" at intervals as it is loading stuff, which in turn resets the elevation of the aircraft.

Now, I can't be sure this is what causes it. I have noticed that my 707 bounces a couple of times if I am sitting at the runway threshold, and I deploy full flaps (from zero). Again, it's almost as if something is being reset because the extending flaps are altering the airflow calculations required for when the plane starts moving.

Something similar happens with the RealAir Beechcraft Duke after I have landed. As I slow down on the runway, the plane will occasionally "bounce", and cause the "tyre screech" audio to be played, and some touchdown smoke to appear.

In short, if this is the same phenomenon, then I do not believe that it is restricted to the CS 707. It must be something to do with FSX itself.

Hi all,

Concerning the heavy PITCHING OSCILLATIONS in flight I had signaled in my previous messages :

I have changed a parameter of the flight_tuning section of the aircraft.cfg of the 707:

PITCH_STABILITY = 1.400  (instead of 1.0)

Now the pitching  oscillations are gone ! :)

Guy

Glad you got it working better by making those changes.

Mark

I have read the reports that are on this about the 707  that have the elevator flutter, I have it on the 707 when I engage the alt hold. I have the 727 and have no problems with it. The 707 is my favorite ac. and hope I can get it corrected.  I can however smooth it out a little by slowly adjusting the trim wheel on left side of the yoke.