Hello everybody!

I recently found that some 767-200 were flown by three men crews, it happened in Australia with Ansett. It seems the CEO promised the pilots union that there would always be a Flight Engineer on aircrafts carrying more than 120 passengers and Ansett required Boeing to modify the 767 cockpit to include a Flight Engineer station.

here is a video shot from the jumpseat of one of these 767 in 1987:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f44oPPEYCE&feature=fvst

To me it's an interesting sight as I always thought that one of the  aim of the 767 was to eliminate the need for a Flight Engineer.

Anyone knows if a similar thing happened with the 757?

PS : I hope it's not a repost

passeur,

TWA had ordered the 767's with F/E stations. This was because of contracts with the pilot's union. Only one plane was delivered with the F/E position. By the time the planes were on the assembly line, the company was able to obtain two man crew status for the 767. The plane that had a F/E station was changed to match the fleet. Because of the FAA rules, most of the 767 flying was long enough to require a relief pilot. Different airlines had various demeaning names for the "extra" pilot. At TWA the third pilot was called the "eater" since that was the main occupation of that position.

The 757 escaped the F/E position since it came after it was settled with the unions that these would be two pilot planes with a relief pilot for longer flights. The 767-300 would have a full second crew on long flights of 12 hours + (either two extra F/O's or Capt & F/O).

Lou

Lou thanks for your answer!
I have few more questions :
What were the feelings of the TWA's F/E community at the introduction of these new planes? did some F/E moved to pilot positions as a result? I'm not sure but I think that in Air France some F/E were offered pilot training.

Regarding relief pilots I was wondering : did every TWA pilot could be a relief pilot or were the most junior pilots given this duty?

And the final question : As a pilot how did you see the end of the F/E era?

passeur asked: I have few more questions :

What were the feelings of the TWA's F/E community at the introduction of these new planes? did some F/E moved to pilot positions as a result? I'm not sure but I think that in Air France some F/E were offered pilot training.

At TWA and PanAm as well as other large airlines there were professional F/E's. This was a hangover from the piston days where the F/E's were not pilots and never would be. When the 707 came along it was obvious to many of the professional F/E's that the days of the F/E were numbered. Some F/E's were offered a chance to up-grade to pilot and some did. As a flight instructor in the early 60's I had the opportunity to teach a few of the old F/E's. Some were pretty good pilots and did very well up-grading to F/O and then later Captain. When I was hired by TWA, the professional F/E time had ended and all "new" hires were hired as pilots, but started as F/E's and progressed upward as seniority allowed.

As the era of the 747 & L-1011 came on in the early 70's it was clear that new planes would most likely be two pilot planes. The days of the professional F/E and Navigator were a thing of the past.

Regarding relief pilots I was wondering : did every TWA pilot could be a relief pilot or were the most junior pilots given this duty?

The relief pilot position was a bid position. Each month, every pilot would bid the flights he or she wanted and seniority determined which flights one could hold. Some people would bid relief position for better days off or commuting to work etc. At TWA we were able to mix-up our flying using a computer bid system which would allow all different types of trades with other pilots as long as you remained legal time wise. Later, when AA bought TWA it was like going back to the dark ages with their bidding system. Very restrictive bidding. This old fashioned bid system was very inefficient for crew utilization and cost AA countless millions each month in crew cost. The bottom line was that the unions would not allow the better system since that would mean fewer crew members would be needed.  

And the final question : As a pilot how did you see the end of the F/E era?

Well, as a pilot who started in small planes and worked as a flight instructor to build time I found the F/E position to be a great learning position. Sure I wanted to fly as a pilot, but back then the schools were very complete, teaching in detail how the systems worked. Today the schools are short and only the minimum is taught - it's all about $$$$.  I was glad I saw the F/E position, but the real F/E was the person flying the Connie or the large pistons - they were busy!

BTW, while I was in college in New York, I worked for Air France at KJFK in their dispatch office. Air France was one of the first to implement a true computer flight plan with an IBM-360 computer using punch cards. There were 12 airlines that used the services of Air France dispatch.

The 707 and DC-8 were the primary planes we planed for, but we also did plans for DC-6's and CL-44's. It was a great learning experience for me to see different airlines and how they operated. Air France had professional F/E's and Navigators into the mid 60's

Lou

At Northwest, they had some guys in their late 60's, 70's and perhaps early 80's working the FE on their 747-200 freighters. However, Delta ended the operation, and those poor guys had to go enjoy retirement  :( ::)

Thanks for your answers guys! and sorry for my late answer, the past few days were buisy