Dear 707 flyers:

I've been flying the CS 707 and it's really a very high level product, but I've found one characteristic that may not be too realistic. Don't you think that the plane is extremely sensitive in pitch? Small pitch trim inputs generate large pitch variations... As far as I was told, the 707 was very "heavy" in commands and very stable in all axis. What could I do in order to make the trim less sensitive?

Thanks for the attention!

Hi, PMSoares and welcome to the 707 club.  :)

Quote:

As far as I was told, the 707 was very "heavy" in commands and very stable in all axis.

I think this is true as the plane only has a powered rudder while the rest is up to the arrangement of the arms and levers driven by the pilot's inputs.

The only thing one can reproduce in the sim is the actual distance needed to deflect some Ailerons or Elevator. The whole aspect of the centring forces or the ones which are to overcome on each movement are done via the spring in your yoke or joystick. Flying a joystick also enables you to be much quicker on the flight control movement, the distance to e. g. bank the plane is much less than on a yoke.
So this artificial hardware setup on a PC may contribute to your impression of too sporty reactions. Those centring forces and springs may be too weak to reflect some large rw yoke plus metres of cable until the actual flight control is reached.

If you really feel that the plane behaves too sporty, you could do some things though.
Edit the FSX control settings, this would affect all planes though.
Edit the aircraft.cfg, this would need a lot of trial and error I think.
Edit the way the flight control movement gets interpreted by FSX, this is done via FSUIPC (registered) and can be assigned plane specific. You could enable a progressive input curve there, requiring more distance around the centre and then progressing more or less steeply.

Or you could use some force feedback hardware and maybe addon software. I've set up a large damping force there for the 707 and also some friction, so while the joystick of mine would allow a fast movement, the forces stop me from being too fast.
I think this solution may be the most expensive one, but also allows a nice tweaking of the actual feel of the plane. With the mentioned setup, it feels like a heavy and 'no power steering' one. Very enjoyable.

CoolP wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2012 at 3:43pm:

Hi, PMSoares and welcome to the 707 club.  :) Quote: As far as I was told, the 707 was very "heavy" in commands and very stable in all axis. I think this is true as the plane only has a powered rudder while the rest is up to the arrangement of the arms and levers driven by the pilot's inputs. The only thing one can reproduce in the sim is the actual distance needed to deflect some Ailerons or Elevator. The whole aspect of the centring forces or the ones which are to overcome on each movement are done via the spring in your yoke or joystick. Flying a joystick also enables you to be much quicker on the flight control movement, the distance to e. g. bank the plane is much less than on a yoke. So this artificial hardware setup on a PC may contribute to your impression of too sporty reactions. Those centring forces and springs may be too weak to reflect some large rw yoke plus metres of cable until the actual flight control is reached. If you really feel that the plane behaves too sporty, you could do some things though. Edit the FSX control settings, this would affect all planes though. Edit the aircraft.cfg, this would need a lot of trial and error I think. Edit the way the flight control movement gets interpreted by FSX, this is done via FSUIPC (registered) and can be assigned plane specific. You could enable a progressive input curve there, requiring more distance around the centre and then progressing more or less steeply. Or you could use some force feedback hardware and maybe addon software. I've set up a large damping force there for the 707 and also some friction, so while the joystick of mine would allow a fast movement, the forces stop me from being too fast. I think this solution may be the most expensive one, but also allows a nice tweaking of the actual feel of the plane. With the mentioned setup, it feels like a heavy and 'no power steering' one. Very enjoyable.

I think he's referring to the the autopilot pitch wheel. You hold it for one second and the nose shoots up (or down) many many degrees. I think he means that in order to trim the plane out, the pitch trim wheel should not be so sensitive.

At least, its how I understood it, I could be wrong. Only because I noticed it too :P

I don't find mine too sensitive. I more often use the pitch trim wheel on the 2D A/P panel so maybe that is the difference.

I agree with Mark, the 707 is not as fast in pitch trim as the 727. The 2D autopilot seems to work pretty well. Use quick taps of the mouse button on the pitch wheel up or down, and watch the pitch change on the horizon. With short taps on the pitch wheel I find I can control the pitch pretty well.

If your problem is the elevator authority, a force feed back stick, as CoolP said, will help make the force a bit more realistic.

Lou

LOU wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:49pm:

I agree with Mark, the 707 is not as fast in pitch trim as the 727. The 2D autopilot seems to work pretty well. Use quick taps of the mouse button on the pitch wheel up or down, and watch the pitch change on the horizon. With short taps on the pitch wheel I find I can control the pitch pretty well. If your problem is the elevator authority, a force feed back stick, as CoolP said, will help make the force a bit more realistic. Lou

Hello Captain! First of all, it's a pleasure to talk with such an experienced aviator like you!

What I feel is that the plane , under manual control (autopilot OFF) is quite sensitive to pitch inputs. It seems that the trim is way too effective. Under pitch control by the autopilot, it behaves in a fine way, but very little trim inputs (eg. one click on the trim button) causes a quite large pitch change...

I'm using AP ON just afetr takeoff in order to acheive a nice pitch control,but  would like to fly the initial climbout and IFR approaches with AP OFF. Is it possible to edit the CFG in order to make the pitch trim less sensitive under manual flight?

Thanks for the help!

PMSoares,

I fly the CS 707 a lot and have found it pretty easy to trim the elevator by using my assigned buttons on the joy stick. I use very small taps on the buttons for up or down trim. The 727 trim is way more sensitive, but I am still able to keep it in trim with short taps on the trim buttons.

MARKOZ had a fix in the FSX config file to make the trim a bit less sensitive, but I'll let him jump in here and tell us how he did that.

The real 707 had only rudder boost, the other controls were moved by cable and push rods using control tabs and balance panels. The 707 was a fairly heavy plane in pitch and roll, but that is only when compared to later boosted controls. Normal small movements in pitch and roll were very comfortable with just one hand. Larger movements of the controls would need a bit more effort, but not that much.

Lou  

LOU wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 3:37pm:

PMSoares, I fly the CS 707 a lot and have found it pretty easy to trim the elevator by using my assigned buttons on the joy stick. I use very small taps on the buttons for up or down trim. The 727 trim is way more sensitive, but I am still able to keep it in trim with short taps on the trim buttons. MARKOZ had a fix in the FSX config file to make the trim a bit less sensitive, but I'll let him jump in here and tell us how he did that. The real 707 had only rudder boost, the other controls were moved by cable and push rods using control tabs and balance panels. The 707 was a fairly heavy plane in pitch and roll, but that is only when compared to later boosted controls. Normal small movements in pitch and roll were very comfortable with just one hand. Larger movements of the controls would need a bit more effort, but not that much. Lou

I do it the same as Lou. Small taps on the buttons for up and down trim.

As for my fix in the FSX config file. I reduced the sensitivity of the buttons for trim up and trim down (see attached image). You could reduce them from the settings that I use, but I find it way too slow at the lowest setting.

Mark

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Too sensitive in pitch trimming for sure.
I'm going to reduce elevator_trim_effectiveness in aircraft .cfg
I'll post what suites the best for me.

very sensitive, trim I hope the next patch fix that

roberto wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 6:43am:

Too sensitive in pitch trimming for sure. I'm going to reduce elevator_trim_effectiveness in aircraft .cfg I'll post what suites the best for me.

if you do that, then dont forget to recalculate STAB setting for take-off :) coz gauge still shows same numbers. elevator_trim_effectiveness reduces effectiveness, not step. so if you set it to 0.3, then multiply stab setting by 3.33 to obtain true take-off setting ;)

We'll I've finally come across the solution for the sensitive pitch! You must have a registered version of FSUIPC. Check 'Fix control acceleration' and all will be good.  Now I have to re-learn my hand flying!

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/fsxpaul/FSX/FSUIPCTrimSensitivityFix.jpg

Thanks Paul, that did it for me.

Thank you  Lou , Markoz, FSXPaul and windplayer. I've made some adjustments and it's flying better now.  :)

I also think it is way too sensitive. To me, the 737 is the way it should be. However, whatever opinion we have on this, the 707 and the 737 are definitely very different in that regard. I prefer the pitch trim of the 737, it just seems much more realistic... and I don't like to mess with the FSUIPC (I haven't had to use it so far either).