Hi Everyone,
I'm trying to land my 707 as per the manual and I'm having problems. I'm not a real life pilot so if anyone with real world experience can give me advice I'd appreciate it.
My landing weight is about 220k pounds. According to the manual, Vth for that weight is 130 with Flaps 40. Flaps 14 is Bug +30. I guess my first question is are they referring to Bug as Vth? Then, flaps 25 occur at Bug+20, and finally flaps 40 happens at Bug +10. At  220k lbs. the plane just seems to heavy to have KIAS 130 at touchdown. I have to have to nose way up with N1 at 80% and then I can't see the runway. So what am I doing wrong? When my Vth is 150 I can land the plane fine at that weight but according to the manual that is too fast.  Again just trying to put realism into the 707 experience. Any advice is appreciated.

BrianG,

The reference Vref speed is what you are calling Vth. If the chart says the Vref for 220,000 pounds is 130 KTS that is in landing config with gear down and flaps 40. You noted the flaps 40 setting is Vref + 10 or Bug +10 so you should be landing at around 140 KTS. The pitch of the nose on approach is about 3 to 5 degrees. Make sure you are sitting high enough by using SHIFT+ENTER to raise up in the seat. You should be able to see most of the HSI and the nut that holds the windshield wiper.

First screen capture, too low in the seat.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6310/7071.jpg

Better seat position.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2369/7072y.jpg

Lou



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Lou,
Thanks for your detailed explanation. Adding that extra 10k of speed makes landing much easier. So I guess the manual is correct? In your recollection of the 707, if your landing weight is 220k lbs., does 140 kias with flaps 40 seem like a accurate landing speed?
Thanks again for all your efforts.

BrianG,

Here is the placard that is under the glare shield.

At a landing weight of 200,000 # the stall speed is 110 KTS. Minimum approach is 1.3 X 110 = 143 KTS - This is bug speed, add 10 KTS and you have your speed with full flaps. I use 50 degrees of flap as it gives a slightly slower speed and a better (lower) deck angle.

I really don't remember the numbers, it was many moons since I set foot in the 707 RW.  :-[  We had a chart that would give us more information than the placard shown below. I just remember the 707 as being easy to fly but slow in roll since the controls were not boosted. If you did need to give it some horsing around the spoilers would kick in and increase the roll rate, but nothing like the 727 or any of the later planes.


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9621/speedsqt.jpg

Lou

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Thanks Lou,
So to increase roll rate on the 707 would you have to set the spoilers or would they kick in automatically based on your commands? . I'll try a roll using spoilers and see if that helps performance. The 143kts ( and the formula you provided)  makes landing a lot easier
As you mentioned, the boost pumps on the controls really make the 727 much more concise and responsive in every aspect of flight.
I've never used flaps 50 as I read in the manual this was used for shorter or wet runways when less distance was needed. Think I'll rely  of the advice of a real 707 pilot such as yourself. Thank so much for all your help.

The spoilers are automatically fed into the mix at around 10 degrees of wheel movement of the yoke.
On the top of the yoke there is a placard with degrees left and right of zero. This is used to see how much wheel displacement there is when trimming the plane and also to see where the spoilers begin to kick in during a turn.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2301/yoke.jpg

If you move the wheel just a little past 10 degrees you get just a slight amount of spoiler deflection. If you really crank into a turn you'll get a lot more spoiler action with the aileron. Remember, the outboard ailerons are locked out with flaps up. This is because Boeing felt there would be too much stress on the end of the wing at higher speed. I don't remember there being a lot of difference in the roll rate with the aileron locked, since when it was locked out you were going faster so the control had more effect and it pretty much balanced out.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6123/yoke20.jpg

In the above picture the wheel is deflected about 20 degrees. In the lower picture you can see the wing and the ailerons and spoilers with some deflection. If you play with the controls while looking at the wing you will see the interaction of the spoilers and ailerons. Also while you're looking at the wing, hit the spoiler key [/] and see just how much more deflection you get. In the 707, in-flight spoiler use was avoided since the inboard spoilers would shake the horizontal stabilizer too much. There is a switch on the overhead panel to turn off either inboard or outboard sets of spoilers. If you did need some drag to get down (poor planning?  :-[ ) you could turn off the inboard set of spoilers and just use the outboards.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5009/yoke20out.jpg

As for using full flaps for landing, we always used 50 or full flaps in the 707 as it saved tires and brakes. In the 727 full flaps was avoided because it took more power and produced a lot more noise.

Lou

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Hi Lou,
That was really interested learning about the spoilers and the fact that they weren't used inflight. On decent's I really have a hard time slowing the 707 to the point where I can start deploying flaps and it seems I always wind up using the spoiler for this purpose. I always use the 3:1 rule when starting a decent at try keeping VSI around 2200, and maintain a speed of around 250 kias.But she has such a hard time slowing down, even when power is set at idle. So I always end up using spoilers to slow down. The 727 slows very fast once throttle is reduced but not the 707. So how did you keep her in line  during a decent without using the spoilers. Again, your help and informative description are so appreciated.

When ready to slow, just reduce the descent rate to near zero and the plane will slow pretty quick.
3 to 1 is a good ball park starting point. Remember to plan extra miles in descent if you have a tail wind.
You can still use the speed brakes if you turn off the inboard spoilers, but try not to need them.

LOU wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 2:45am:

When ready to slow, just reduce the descent rate to near zero and the plane will slow pretty quick. 3 to 1 is a good ball park starting point. Remember to plan extra miles in descent if you have a tail wind. You can still use the speed brakes if you turn off the inboard spoilers, but try not to need them.

A question Lou. When you were flying the 707, did you use the rule - Ground Speed x 5 = Vertical Speed as way of determining your VS at the T/D?

i.e. Current Ground Speed at FL350 is 500. Using the 3:1 rule for T/D means that I need to start the descent at 105 miles from my destination. Now.
Using the rule GS x 5 = VS (500 x 5 = 2500) would mean that I need the VS to be 2500 feet per minute. As I get lower, my ground speed gets slower and so the VS should match. So at FL200 with a GS of 400 (400 x 5 = 2000) will mean that my VS should be 2000 fpm?

Any guide lines on this rule will be greatly appreciated. I do use this rule and I do find it quite helpful, but there are still times when I wind up too high and too close. I also do a lot of checks to make sure that at I'm maintaining the 3:1 rule as closely as possible and I find that I need to use the spoilers regardless. The fact that it is possible to turn off the inboard spoilers is new to me, but I will have to give it a try.

Mark

Lou,
So I assume you're talking about setting power to idle and keeping the plane level while speed drops, then starting the decent? So during the decent were you mostly at idle throughout? My 707 always seems to pick up speed during the decent but I use you suggestion of slowing down first.
Thanks again Lou.

Mark & BrianG, the 3X the altitude is at idle power.

This 3X altitude, is a good place to start your descent plan. You apply the wind and adjust the distance.  Your example using the ground speed is fine, but the old planes did not have ground speed readout, so you had to do a time vs distance on the DME and calculate GS. None of that sissy information in these old birds. Which ever system you use, you need to keep updating the calculations in your head as you descend so as not to bust an altitude or get too low or too high since winds change etc. In the Boeing manual it states that the most efficient flight path is a power off descent. In the real world there are many factors that constantly change during either climb or descent. Temperature also effects what the plane will do in climb or descent. A/I on or off makes a difference. Remember, these are just guides, but they worked pretty well. When I got to the fancy planes with all the computers and glass it was apparent that the atmosphere would change a lot as you climbed or descended. One of the greatest tools is the wind vector arrow in the HSI. Keeping track of changes in the local wind was a great help in flying the profile.

I don't remember the exact numbers from the flight handbook, but I seem to recall a descent at cruise mach to around FL290 or so and then around 290 to 300 KTS down to 10,000 feet and then 250 KTS. If you descend slower you will be high and of course too fast, lower.

Hint: if you see you are too high or too low on the descent profile...adjust speed to get back on the profile.  :P You can always add some thrust if you are getting too low.

We hardly ever needed spoilers unless ATC changed some altitude restriction at the last minute. You could adjust the FPM/IVSI over a wide range with speed changes. To slow from 300 KTS to the 250 KTS restriction at 10,000' would take several miles, so you had to factor that as well.

I guess if you were lucky enough to have doppler installed on your 707 you can get GS. But otherwise, in basic nav. speed is of course determined by D/T. With the 707 you have your DME to determine distance but how do you come up with the time value to plug in the formula ? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment Lou of getting GS by doing a time vs. distance calculation?
Mark, I'm glad I'm not alone in having to use spoilers to slow down.
Lou,when flying the CS 707 are you able to maintain proper speed during a decent without going for the speed brakes by doing those thing you described? Perhaps the CS model is inconsistent with the real world 707 in this respect? Or is it my lack of experience?
And Lou, in another thread I really enjoyed your tutorial on utilizing the LOM in capturing the LOC at the proper distance. While setting up my ILS approaches I always had the RMI  turned to VOR rather than ADF, and never took advantage of the LOM as you suggested. Great trick to keeping your heading just a bit outside of the outer marker to ensure you'll capture the LOC with plenty of distance from your runway. By not doing this, at times I found myself much to close in  upon capturing the LOC and had to scramble to make the approach. Not good.  This is why I really like flying these old planes. It forces you to think. So much fun.

LOU wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 6:32pm:

Mark & BrianG, the 3X the altitude is at idle power. This 3X altitude, is a good place to start your descent plan. You apply the wind and adjust the distance.  Your example using the ground speed is fine, but the old planes did not have ground speed readout, so you had to do a time vs distance on the DME and calculate GS. None of that sissy information in these old birds. Which ever system you use, you need to keep updating the calculations in your head as you descend so as not to bust an altitude or get too low or too high since winds change etc. In the Boeing manual it states that the most efficient flight path is a power off descent. In the real world there are many factors that constantly change during either climb or descent. Temperature also effects what the plane will do in climb or descent. A/I on or off makes a difference. Remember, these are just guides, but they worked pretty well. When I got to the fancy planes with all the computers and glass it was apparent that the atmosphere would change a lot as you climbed or descended. One of the greatest tools is the wind vector arrow in the HSI. Keeping track of changes in the local wind was a great help in flying the profile. I don't remember the exact numbers from the flight handbook, but I seem to recall a descent at cruise mach to around FL290 or so and then around 290 to 300 KTS down to 10,000 feet and then 250 KTS. If you descend slower you will be high and of course too fast, lower. Hint: if you see you are too high or too low on the descent profile...adjust speed to get back on the profile.  :P You can always add some thrust if you are getting too low. We hardly ever needed spoilers unless ATC changed some altitude restriction at the last minute. You could adjust the FPM/IVSI over a wide range with speed changes. To slow from 300 KTS to the 250 KTS restriction at 10,000' would take several miles, so you had to factor that as well.

Thanks again for your invaluable information Lou. I have been cheating and using the default GPS 500. :-[ From now on I will go by the 3X the altitude is at idle power rule. I will ignore the GS that appears in the GPS. That's going to an interesting challenge, I'm 1350 miles from Honolulu (as I type) and so I will get to test that rule in about 3 hours or so. ;) If I mess this up it's back to approach and landing practice I will go. :(

Mark

Hey Mark,
I've been very disciplined and haven't used the GPS once since I got the 707 last March. I vowed not to break tradition of period. And by doing things the old fashioned way it really sharpens skills you wouldn't normally use. Have fun and enjoy.

Brian. I mostly use the GPS as a map so I know exactly where I am. However, the Ground Speed is displayed on the main page so I can't help but see it. I know the 707 has a map (SHIFT+4) and I love how far back zooms, but it lacks information to help me know where I am. (I don't have printed Departure, Arrival and Enroute charts on my lap. I have been thinking of getting buy charts and stuff for Navigraph nDac, but I need to look into this more before I do. Is there anyone who uses nDac that can tell me what they think of it?

Now for the results of my descent, approach and landing at PHNL.

I was at FL370, 260 knots with a tail wind. I decided to start my descent at 126 miles from HNL (15 miles early). I reduced the throttles to idle and, because I was already going slower than 280 knots, started my descent immediately. With the throttles at idle the 707 still slowed to  240 knots even though my VS was 2200-2400 fpm. I had to use the throttle to try to maintain 280-300 knots! I manage to stay close to the numbers all the way down to 5000 feet. I captured the ILS and shortly after that, the GS. Although it went well I still only just made it down to the 5000 feet in time to catch the G/S. It was closer than I would prefer.

My big surprise was how much my 707 slowed down at idle with 2000+ fpm VS at that high altitude. I think I need to practice up a bit more on this. And next time I'll cruise at ~M0.84 instead of M0.80.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I assume that was 280 kias when you started your decent? Mine always seems to speed up once I start my decent, probably because I don't bother to slow down before starting the decent. That's what led me to my conversation with Lou about using inflight spoilers. You read that. Adding to realism as it was "back in the days", can you turn your GPS off so you can't see the GS? But it sounds like the approach you described was almost spot on. That's great.
I would like to get approach charts as well. FSX doesn't give you much vertical information in the flight plans. As an example: I did a flight from Spokane, Washington, KGEG (USA) to KSEA. Following the 3:1 rule in starting the decent and maintaining 2200 fpm at 300k, I would have crashing into the Olympic Mountain Range just East of Seattle if I hadn't been looking at my radio altimeter. I did follow altitude assignments as per the flight plan. And I did find myself using spoilers to keep the 707 slowed. Next 707 flight I do I'll try slowing down before the decent as Lou suggested.
So yes, some more accurate approach charts would make this a lot more realistic and take the guess factor out if it.  There's just not enough information provided by Microsoft. What do you think?

BrianG, you asked how to get ground speed from looking at the DME readout.

If you start your stop watch and look at the DME see how many miles click by in one minute. If you see 10 miles go by in one minute you're doing 600 KTS.  All you need to do is take the miles that click by in one minute and X by 60.

For example you see 7.5 miles go by in one minute: 7.5 X 60=450 KTS.

Poor man's G/S readout.  ;D

As for Mark's descent profile... While above FL290 use Mach instead of IAS.

You are at FL 370 at Mach .80. When ready for descent, start the nose down while slowly closing the throttles. Keep Mach .80 until you get into fatter air. Around FL 300 to FL 290 transition to IAS and continue descent at 290 KTS. You can change the speed to adjust the descent unless ATC has given you a speed. All the while you need to keep updating your descent profile to see how its going. If your numbers show you a bit low on the profile, add a little power and re-check the profile. If ATC assigns you a speed, as they often do - for instance a lot of times they will say "you are leading the pack, keep your best forward speed."  No problem, just add power and get the speed to the barber pole if you want, but keep an eye on the profile since you will have to make some adjustments in the IVSI to stay on the profile.

Remember, flying is mostly art and maybe a touch of science.

Lou

LOU wrote on Jul 1^st, 2011 at 6:21pm:

As for Mark's descent profile... While above FL290 use Mach instead of IAS. You are at FL 370 at Mach .80. When ready for descent, start the nose down while slowly closing the throttles. Keep Mach .80 until you get into fatter air. Around FL 300 to FL 290 transition to IAS and continue descent at 290 KTS. You can change the speed to adjust the descent unless ATC has given you a speed. All the while you need to keep updating your descent profile to see how its going. If your numbers show you a bit low on the profile, add a little power and re-check the profile. If ATC assigns you a speed, as they often do - for instance a lot of times they will say "you are leading the pack, keep your best forward speed."  No problem, just add power and get the speed to the barber pole if you want, but keep an eye on the profile since you will have to make some adjustments in the IVSI to stay on the profile.

I can't believe it! Why the heck was I not thinking of the fact that at high altitude I use Mach and not KIAS! Doh. I feel like a complete dunce. It must be because of my current pain relief medicine! It is not allowing me to think straight. :( Hey! I gotta blame someone/something. ;)

@Brian. All speeds were KIAS.

Mark

Lou,
Thanks and thanks again for all your help. I will be incorporating all your points into my flights. If it weren't for all your generosity and help, I wouldn't be enjoy flight sim nearly as much. I couldn't imagine were I would get this type of information being it's so specific.  If you're ever in the Bay Area (CA ) look me up. I definitely owe you a cold one or two.
Hey Mark,
Don't beat yourself up so bad. I never thought of using Mach rather than IAS and I'm not even taking pain killers.  

Hey Mark,

Try this reading with your current drug status... It could induce glazed eye syndrome.  :o

http://www.tscm.com/mach-as.pdf

---

In the 727 the Mmo ( Mach maximum operate ) is .89, pretty fast for a 60's type jet. The reason for the limit is that parts of the wing will go faster than Mach 1.0. When I was an instructor, we would take the students back it the cabin on a training flight and show them the wing at around Mach .89. You could see the shock wave on parts of the wing as that part of the wing approached Mach 1.0. This is a time when we actually used real planes to train pilots. Fuel was 11 cents a gallon back then.  :'(

This drawing shows how some parts of the wing can be at Mach 1.0 while other parts are slower. As you approach the max Mach for the plane you get a buffet that is called Mach buffet. It is similar to the feel of stall buffet. As you climb higher you approach an area called "coffin's corner" where stall buffet and Mach buffet come together. As you can tell by its name it's a place to avoid.  ;)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2074/aerodynamicprofil02.jpg

---

Here is a bit more detail from Joseph Michael Lamonaca, Esq, ATP FAA Lead Safety Rep.

Aircraft climbing at a constant IAS will have an increasing TAS, Mach number is a more precise indicator of speed at the flight levels. The mach meter measures the airspeed of an aircraft relative to the speed of sound. It's basically made up of an Air Speed Indicator and an altimeter. It also has a sealed capsule containing ISA conditions and a pitot pressure sensor inside an (free air ) static pressure sensor. No temperature sensors are present in a machmeter because it uses the formula Mach Number = dynamic pressure. Since airspeed off an ASI must be corrrected for nonstandard temperatures and pressures, Mach is a truer indication of airspeed.

During climb jet aircraft generally conform to a schedule which specifies an initial climb speed as an indicated airspeed (IAS), and a Mach number for the upper part of the climb until cruise altitude is reached. Mach numbers are then used as a cruise schedule. The pressure altitude (FL) at which the IAS climb schedule ends and the climb Mach number schedule starts is called the "Changeover Level".

In the early stages of the climb at a fixed IAS, the Mach numbers rise until changeover level is reached. Changeover level is that flight level where the climb IAS value and climb Mach values occur simultaneously. For any given IAS/Mach climb schedule there can be only one changeover level. Different aircraft types may have different climb schedules specified in their Aircraft Flight Manual. (AFM).

When dealing with two aircraft at the same level, assigning the same IAS or Mach number will produce the same TAS. Mach numbers are normally used for this purpose at fairly high levels (FL250 and above). Mach 1 ranges from about 600kts TAS at FL250 to 572kts TAS at FL350. As a general rule of thumb at these levels 0.01 Mach equals 6 knots TAS. Mach 0.80 at FL290 will produce the same TAS as Mach 0.83 at FL370. This arises because the speed of sound is slightly less at FL370 than it is at FL290.

If a controller is trying to match speeds of aircraft at different levels, the same Mach number will mean that the higher aircraft will be a little slower.  An allowance of .01 Mach for every 2000-3000 feet level difference will achieve a closer match. Unlike Mach number control, the results of allocating IAS restrictions to aircraft vary substantially with altitude. An aircraft maintaining 280 knots IAS at FL370 will have a TAS of 459 knots while at the same IAS at FL270 will produce a TAS of 417 knots.

For aircraft operating at the same IAS, a rule of thumb is 7 knots for every 1000 feet level difference. The result of this is when two aircraft are assigned the same Mach number, the higher aircraft will be slower, however, when they are using the same IAS the higher aircraft will be faster. Above FL240 each 10 knots of IAS equals approximately 15 knots of TAS.

Using the more precise Mach number also allows for reduced longitudinal separation minima, according to the ATC handbook. This is obviously a benefit on high volume air traffic routes.  

This is a time when we actually used real planes to train pilots. Fuel was 11 cents a gallon back then.
And I thought petrol (gasoline) was cheap at 11 cents (Aussie) per litre (or 41 cents per US gallon) when I first got my license back in late '76. But 11 cents a gallon. Wow!

Try this reading with your current drug status... It could induce glazed eye syndrome.
Errrr. No thanks. I'll wait until I've finished the medication (tomorrow).

Lou. When is the ideal time to switch from IAS to MACH? If there is such a thing as an ideal time o do so. Generally I do this at FL310.

Mark

Mark, when your drugs are finished, the article talks about just that - when to use Mach.

If I remember, each plane has a different proper altitude. I think in the 707/727 we used FL 280 to 300 to make the change.

Lou

LOU wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2011 at 2:18pm:

Mark, when your drugs are finished, the article talks about just that - when to use Mach. If I remember, each plane has a different proper altitude. I think in the 707/727 we used FL 280 to 300 to make the change. Lou

OK. You convinced me to read up on it now. I thought it would be the same for all planes so I got that one wrong! I'm learning lots of new things from you Lou. "And loving it!" - think of Maxwell Smart (Agent 86), from Get Smart, when you read that! ;D

Mark

LOU wrote on Jul 1^st, 2011 at 6:21pm:

BrianG, you asked how to get ground speed from looking at the DME readout. If you start your stop watch and look at the DME see how many miles click by in one minute. If you see 10 miles go by in one minute you're doing 600 KTS.  All you need to do is take the miles that click by in one minute and X by 60. For example you see 7.5 miles go by in one minute: 7.5 X 60=450 KTS. Poor man's G/S readout.  ;D Lou

As an addition to Lou's info, using time-speed-distance, any two will give you the third. You can also still buy a 'wizzwheel' (E6B) which will help with that as well as a lot of other things, if you REALLY want to get 'real'.

Time to park the 757 and get back into the 707 for awhile, Lou's posts have that affect on me!

Thanks Jay