Hey Folks...

i have a little problem with my 757!
When i try autoland it comes down very hard!! (something about 700ft/min)
on the Display it says "Flare" and its also green highlited, but it doesnt seems to work..Its not possible to fly with FS Passenger, 'cause on every landing my Tires explode... :'( :'(
I use flapsettings and speed from the FMC!, and i calculate and enter the ZFW correctly...
and sorry for my bad English :) maybe someone speeks German? :)

Greets from LOLW

Jürgen  :D

Welcome, Jürgen.
From my experience, this hard landing is normal since they AP doesn't flare in any way. The real plane doesn't flare (in the actual meaning of "flare") too and only changes pitch very slightly, so it's "flying on the runway".
But since this small pitch change doesn't take place in the Sim (sadly), your descend rates might stay that high.
I don't use any passenger addons, so I usually get away with blaming my FO for the hard landing and hoping for some new passengers to board.  :P

Of course, the rw guys will state that especially Autolands are always "firm" to say the least, but 700ft/min are a bit to high for all the things in the cabin and especially for those which have to damp that bump, so you are right there I think.
Maybe one of the FDE Pros could rule that Autoland behaviour out. Otherwise, it will have to be fixed. On the bright side one has to mention that it always hits the spot, just like an Autoland should.

Jurgen & CoolP,

The RW autoland planes do flare. The flare is dependent on the sink rate during the last part of the approach.
If you have 500 to 700' FPM the flare will be small, but it does flare. Landing at 500 to 700 FPM is not a hard landing, but you would notice it.

When you knock down the passenger oxygen masks in the cabin, now your talking!  :o

I don't have this problem when doing the autoland, but at 100' to go, take a quick scan of the panel and make sure the sink rate is around 500 to 700 FPM. If the sink is near 1,000 FPM the landing most likely will be firm. It's not going to hurt anything landing at 700 FPM, just the smart remarks from the cabin.  ;)

Hey, they paid for a ride and you gave 'em one!

Lou

LOU wrote on Mar 17^th, 2011 at 12:51am:

Jurgen & CoolP, The RW autoland planes do flare. The flare is dependent on the sink rate during the last part of the approach. If you have 500 to 700' FPM the flare will be small, but it does flare. Landing at 500 to 700 FPM is not a hard landing, but you would notice it. When you knock down the passenger oxygen masks in the cabin, now your talking!  :o I don't have this problem when doing the autoland, but at 100' to go, take a quick scan of the panel and make sure the sink rate is around 500 to 700 FPM. If the sink is near 1,000 FPM the landing most likely will be firm. It's not going to hurt anything landing at 700 FPM, just the smart remarks from the cabin.  ;) Hey, they paid for a ride and you gave 'em one! Lou

Lou. I sometime I wonder how rough you were on your passengers!

Nahhhh. Just kidding mate. You sound like a great pilot with a great sense of humour. :D ;D

Mark

I'm bumping the F-18 on the deck of a Carrier at 700ft/min and they tell me that I can only do that because she has a strong undercarriage for that purpose. And you can really see that this undercarriage has a lot of work to do there.
If you say that those 700 are ok on the big planes, than I'm doing too soft landings there since ages. I'm aiming for anything well lower than 500ft/min so far and sometimes didn't succeed, leading to a big bump.
Since I'm a Sissy, this must be intended.  ;D

But you see me wondering now. Are my values for touching down (<500) wrong and where did I get them?
I'll browse some forums now, maybe some docs too.
Don't see that as questioning your knowledge and experience, Lou. My memory tells me that anything above 600ft/min causes  :o on fellow forum members faces when speaking about airliner landings.

We are talking about the moment just before touchdown, right?
The moment where the wheels "kiss" the ground then.
As you saw, I've agreed with Jürgen that the current Autoland of the 757/767 doesn't flare (enough) to avoid a really firm landing.
I think that we're discussing a misunderstanding here, that's why I'm asking so "safely".  :-/

Remember, I'm not a real Pilot and a Sim "Sissy" too  ;D, but I think that 1000ft/min at touchdown will very much lead to such things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pk1N6GzeOo

Here's the crash report regarding this video (http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR82-02.pdf).
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/25/excerpt3.th.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1749/excerpt.jpg

Reading the descend rates there at touchdown, we're near 1000ft/min and you may want to look at that video again.

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/7154/excerpt2.jpg


Seems like the FAA says that the aircraft must be able to take a 600ft/min landing, just in case. So even 700ft/min would be well above this limit and I think that they've grounded the always "hard landing" Concorde (so to say that she has a capable undercarriage, eating up most of the bump) after a 800+ft/min one for inspections to be made.

It's always been my experience that the real hard landings were always made during the F/O's leg ;D

During the last 10 to 20 feet of the Autoland, I pull the nose up gently to get a nice and soft landing. Not sure if this would disengage the AP in real life, but it certainly doesn't in the CS 757 or 767.

Mark

This is definately a hard but OK landing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAVGiHurnS0

The CS757 autoland should be fixed in v4.5. I´ve read in other forums that 200-400fpm is "normal".

Regards
Nepo

Svicar,

You are so right, the F/O's landings are never as good as the Captain!  8-)

The problem in simulation is the lack of certain tactile feedback you get in the real world. One is the sound along with movement of the auto throttles during the approach. As the plane nears the flare point you would sense the nose rising and movement in the throttles along with pitch change in the sound of the engines. The pilot flying always has a hand on the throttles during approach for just that reason, plus the go around paddles are on the throttles. All are clues as to what the autopilot is doing. Overriding the autopilot was never used during the flare in the RW. I doubt the slight pull (in the real plane) would do very much since for example it took around 40 pounds of force to override the rudder during roll out if you tried to move off the centerline to exit the runway. You would need to disconnect the autopilot in order to steer the plane. Overriding the auto throttle was very easy to do, and sometimes you would do that to smooth out some slight pitch oscillations during the approach.

Holding the plane off to get a "smooth" landing was a no no since you used too much runway (remember your doing around 200 feet per second.)
If the runway was wet, a smooth landing could result in not getting wheel spin-up as the tire would slide along on a thin layer of water, which could cause a reverted rubber flat patch on the tire, plus the anti-skid would not work until the wheel was up to speed. Actual feet per minute at touch down of 300 to 500 FPM is not a bad landing. The wheels are a lot bigger on the airliners than the tiny things on the F18 and if you watch the 747 or the other large planes as they land, you can see a lot of movement in the trucks as the plane touches down. The 727 was what we called stiff footed since it did not have truck movement to dampen the hit. Over 1,000 FPM could produce the rubber jungle.  :-?

Lou

I feel some sort of relief, we're back to normal values (for my Sissy Sim pilot's mind  ;D) of 300-500ft/min at touchdown.
Thanks, Lou.

Nepomuk, nice video there. Yes, there's some bumpy movement on the 757's gear. Not soft, so to say. I own some of the Piloteyes things. Best ones around.
I'll vote for an updated Autoland in 4.5 too since Jürgen seems very right in my eyes, complaining about 700ft/min which would look different than the nice 757 on that video.


And the best sentences a FO can say are:
1) That was a nice landing, Sir!
2) Next round is on me.
3) I'll take the fat one.
8-)

CoolP,


And the best sentences a FO can say are:
1) That was a nice landing, Sir!
2) Next round is on me.
3) I'll take the fat one.

Add to that... I take the chicken, Sir.
Captain gets the steak!  ;)

Hard landing by a C-130 in Nam in the 60's
Wonder what the rate of descent was on touchdown?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHSACq-HeoA

Real men don't flare... :o

Ouch! That hurts from watching. And that C130 can take quite a bump I think.

OUCH!!! Kind of reminds me of a short field "landing" I witnessed in the jump seat of a Dash 8-300 at Port Hardy. We were still airborne almost a third of the way down the runway when the captain took control, (F/O's leg..). I swear we found fillings and false teeth in the pax cabin for days ::)

Ok, since this thread already got hijacked. Watch my landing in Russia here. How to NOT land. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhUO4pdGCf8

CoolP, was this the Captain on that landing???  :o


http://home.comcast.net/~lou.lynn/landing.jpg

I doubt, but I think the passenger did look that way.   ;D