Have watched Mercuries you tube on the AP.  Have read and read.  Have tried multiple times to manage pitch without succes.

AP Mode MAN...HDG SEL...Climbout...1800 fps I engage Aileron and Elevator....still continues to pitch higher.  Is this what should happen?  Or do I need to control with speed?

I then just hold ATL for level flight for learning purposes.  More attempts, still no pitch control.  I disengaged ALT HOLD and click quickley on pitch controller, no response.  The FD bars move, plane does not....I get a jerky movement.

Tracking VOR radial, constant veering back and forth.  Is this expected behavior?

Great price $12 USD.  I really like this model, just need a push in the right direction.











Great price of $12 USD.  Weak on tutorial/manual.  Really want to figure this one out.

Are you using the pitch control on the 2D autopilot? Or the VC autopilot? The pitch control in the VC is really difficult to use, so I use the 2D autopilot.

Mark

I am having the same issue.  When in manual mode, the pitch knob doesn't seem to do anything.  I can turn the elevator axis hold off, then use trim controls to get it where I want it, then click the elevator axis back on and it will hold that pitch fairly well, but trying to use that knob is useless.  

I am also using the 2d AP panel.  Running FSX SP2 under Vista 32 SP2.  Everything else seems to work fine.  

Issue#4897 in the Knowledge Base.  A known issue with users of FSX SP2 but not Acceleration.    You have to download this gauge and replace it in your 727-100 panel folder.   http://www.captainsim.org/tools/x727/sp2/Captain_Sim.p721.sys.gau

I have installed the replacement gauge file. However, using the 2D AP, the pitch control does not work until Alt Hld has been engaged for the first time. After disengaging Alt Hld then the FD pitch control works as it should for me. Until then I use the Yoke rocker switch to control pitch and it is very eradic even with mods in the FSX controls.

Also, The AP engages the Localizer and starts the Glide Slope descent just fine, but then it starts to hobby horse and I have to control pitch all the way to the runway with the rocker switch on my yoke, with the AP still engaged.

I still can't get the the alerter sound either, no matter what I do. It used to work fine after the flight was *Reset*.

This was my first CS purchase (V2.4)--- last May or thereabouts. For awhile I had it all working properly and I don't know what happened. I had to re-install FSX and suddenly the 727 was back to these problems even with the fixes/mods in place. I really like everything about this plane except the pitch control, glide slope and sound problems. I think the final update for the 727 is overdue!!

Bruce

btscott wrote on Dec 25^th, 2010 at 3:38pm:

I have installed the replacement gauge file. However, using the 2D AP, the pitch control does not work until Alt Hld has been engaged for the first time. After disengaging Alt Hld then the FD pitch control works as it should for me. Until then I use the Yoke rocker switch to control pitch and it is very eradic even with mods in the FSX controls. Also, The AP engages the Localizer and starts the Glide Slope descent just fine, but then it starts to hobby horse and I have to control pitch all the way to the runway with the rocker switch on my yoke, with the AP still engaged. I still can't get the the alerter sound either, no matter what I do. It used to work fine after the flight was *Reset*. This was my first CS purchase (V2.4)--- last May or thereabouts. For awhile I had it all working properly and I don't know what happened. I had to re-install FSX and suddenly the 727 was back to these problems even with the fixes/mods in place. I really like everything about this plane except the pitch control, glide slope and sound problems. I think the final update for the 727 is overdue!! Bruce

For the missing sound problem, *reset* the flight does not work for me.  I have to use the select aircraft menu and actually click on the aircraft thumbnail, then load it the second time and then I get my sounds.
 
I'm still playing with the pitch control.  I'll see what happens with regard to ALT hold being engaged the first time.

 I don't have the glideslope problem you are having.  I wonder if you need a bit more airspeed.  

Thx...the new gauge fixed pitch control.  But now I rock back and forth...not very steady.

Now onto capturing the LOC and GS.  So far no joy.  Have watched and watched Mercuries video...he matches the FD to the AP.  Does the FD need to match setting in AP?   If I am MAN GS, HDG, ATL HOLD....does thr FD also need to be in MAN GS?  I have totally ignored the FD.

Is there a switch to change radio freqs between 1 and 2?  The tuning buttons are rediculous....how do you make it change from increase to decrease?

Still enjoying the learning process.  Love the old style of nav this bird offers.

Where do you go to find patches...how was I to know that a new gauge for pitch was required for FSX SP2, Vista 32??

Tutorial manual would also be nice.

ILS stuff from KB:
As you get close to the ILS intercept be at FLAPS 15 and around 150 KTS. This will give you a better degrees per second turn rate thus giving the old autopilot a better chance of success. (the faster you go the slower the turn rate for a given bank angle)

You can select AUTO-G/S anytime during your vectoring for the intercept. The autopilot will remain in HEADING SELECT until LOC intercept.
You must remain BELOW the G/S and intercept the LOC first.

I set up the plane on an intercept heading of around 30 degrees to the localizer and on the initial approach altitude for the ILS selected and about 10 miles from the airport.

I set up the autopilot & F/D in altitude hold and heading select.

I select G/S AUTO on both the autopilot and the F/D. I am flying at 150 KTS with flaps 15 which is a normal setting for this phase of the approach.

Give the autopilot a chance to do it's thing by not rushing the approach.

As the LOC comes alive, the autopilot and F/D will captured the LOC and intercept. The heading select will trip off. With the LOC captured and the plane at 150 KTS and flaps 15 degrees I am now trucking towards the runway. As the G/S comes alive select gear down. One dot to G/S intercept select flaps 30 degrees and as the plane pitches down at G/S intercept adjust power to maintain speed. For these approaches I set the fuel load to 20,000 # and I used around 125 KTS on final.

Note on the F/D... To get "all angle capture" by the F/D you must first select HEADING SELECT and be in that mode for a few seconds before selecting G/S AUTO. The F/D will remain in heading select and can be controlled with the heading knob up until capture of the LOC. If you do not do this heading select first and go directly to G/S AUTO the F/D will program a 45 degree intercept. Not a big deal, but this will give you the option of guiding the plane to an intercept heading during vectoring.

I am somewhat confused by all the verbage. Instructions bounce around between AP & FD with repeated instructuins??

My take:

Assume radios are tuned properly.

Initial APP
  AP -  MAN, HDG, ALT

ILS Intersect
  AP -  AUTO GS
  FD - HDG ALT  Leave this setting for several seconds to override 45 degree intercept???

  FD - AUTO GS

Is this the simplistic way of breaking down an ILS Capture?

I am hoping to get good enough to take her up on VATSIM...not sure it is possible with all the toggling and clicking going on.... I think I will get well versed in "Going Around" .

I am also getting a wild oscillation of my yoke now when I engage the AP pitch paddle.  This is getting kind of tiresome trying to get all the bugs worked out.    

My experience is that you will not get the AP pitch to work without Acceleration.  The Captain Sim workaround causes excessive pitch oscillations.

Ok, I'm getting better at it.  I can get smooth results by waiting to engage the AP elevator paddle until I get the pitch and airspeed where I want them.   And to descend, click off the ALT hold and the AP elevator axis, then trim pitch and power to get a nice descent rate, get it stabilized, then re-engage the AP elevator paddle.  And to be on the safe side, I toggle the ALT hold switch a couple of times on the ground and flip the AP paddles to make sure the bugger is awake...

This thing really forces you to be a better pilot.  

I haven't yet had any real problems with ILS/GS.  I don't bother with the FD.  I do everything from the 2D autopilot panel.  It is a little sluggish, so get it slowed down and have flaps set and be stabilized by the time you are to intercept the localizer.  Gear down as you cross the GS, add flaps to 30, get it looking like you want it, then hand fly the last 1000 feet or so.

Good info , David.  Will give it a go.

Michael2 wrote on Dec 25^th, 2010 at 10:53pm:

My experience is that you will not get the AP pitch to work without Acceleration.  The Captain Sim workaround causes excessive pitch oscillations.

Interesting.  Thanks for that.  When the yoke started slamming back and forth the first time, I was pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work!     :'(

Michael2 wrote on Dec 25^th, 2010 at 10:53pm:

My experience is that you will not get the AP pitch to work without Acceleration.  The Captain Sim workaround causes excessive pitch oscillations.

I can confirm this now.  Just installed Acceleration, now the AP pitch control acts exactly like it should.  Worth the 23 bucks to make the plane work correctly?  I suppose so.

What exactly does Acceleration do?  Looks like a few planes, more missions.... which bore me.  Why in the world would CS design a plane that requires this add-on?

Thx...the new gauge fixed pitch control.  But now I rock back and forth...not very steady.

Now onto capturing the LOC and GS.  So far no joy.  Have watched and watched Mercuries video...he matches the FD to the AP.  Does the FD need to match setting in AP?   If I am MAN GS, HDG, ATL HOLD....does thr FD also need to be in MAN GS?  I have totally ignored the FD.


Davecat,
The autopilot and flight director are independent of each other.

They share the same radio navigation information, but work by themselves.

Don't confuse MAN G/S with manual operation of the autopilot.

If you are using the autopilot in the manual mode you control the autopilot using the turn knob.
*You have the option of using just the aileron channel and steering with the turn knob
*or heading knob on the HSI by selecting heading select with the switch on the right side of the autopilot
*or you can select a radio mode such as NAV and let the steering be done by the autopilot while you control the pitch with the yoke.

The dial on the left side of the autopilot selects the mode the autopilot is using.

http://home.comcast.net/~lou.lynn/727autopilot.jpg



Is there a switch to change radio freqs between 1 and 2?  The tuning buttons are rediculous....how do you make it change from increase to decrease?

http://home.comcast.net/~lou.lynn/727radio.jpg


Still enjoying the learning process.  Love the old style of nav this bird offers.

Where do you go to find patches...how was I to know that a new gauge for pitch was required for FSX SP2, Vista 32??

Tutorial manual would also be nice.

ILS stuff from KB:
As you get close to the ILS intercept be at FLAPS 15 and around 150 KTS. This will give you a better degrees per second turn rate thus giving the old autopilot a better chance of success. (the faster you go the slower the turn rate for a given bank angle)

You can select AUTO-G/S anytime during your vectoring for the intercept. The autopilot will remain in HEADING SELECT until LOC intercept.
You must remain BELOW the G/S and intercept the LOC first.

I set up the plane on an intercept heading of around 30 degrees to the localizer and on the initial approach altitude for the ILS selected and about 10 miles from the airport.

I set up the autopilot & F/D in altitude hold and heading select.

I select G/S AUTO on both the autopilot and the F/D. I am flying at 150 KTS with flaps 15 which is a normal setting for this phase of the approach.

Give the autopilot a chance to do it's thing by not rushing the approach.

As the LOC comes alive, the autopilot and F/D will captured the LOC and intercept. The heading select will trip off. With the LOC captured and the plane at 150 KTS and flaps 15 degrees I am now trucking towards the runway. As the G/S comes alive select gear down. One dot to G/S intercept select flaps 30 degrees and as the plane pitches down at G/S intercept adjust power to maintain speed. For these approaches I set the fuel load to 20,000 # and I used around 125 KTS on final.

Note on the F/D... To get "all angle capture" by the F/D you must first select HEADING SELECT and be in that mode for a few seconds before selecting G/S AUTO. The F/D will remain in heading select and can be controlled with the heading knob up until capture of the LOC. If you do not do this heading select first and go directly to G/S AUTO the F/D will program a 45 degree intercept. Not a big deal, but this will give you the option of guiding the plane to an intercept heading during vectoring.

I am somewhat confused by all the verbage. Instructions bounce around between AP & FD with repeated instructuins??

There are a lot of words because it is not a simple subject.

This was written a while back to help folks find success in making an ILS using both the autopilot and/or flight director.

You must remember they are separate devices that share the same radio information and logic.

Each step was explained to show what the various modes do and how their logic works.
If you match the autopilot and flight director MODE for MODE they should work the same.

You can fly a manually (hand flown) ILS, but depending on FAA rules you are limited in visibility for the approach.
If you use the autopilot for the approach and at least one flight director or both F/D's you can land down to CAT II.

How much detail do you want? It get's very detailed to understand TERPS (Terminal Instrument Procedures.) Too many lawyers!  :P

The CS planes work very much like the real thing - with some bugs - which they are addressing.

Most airline pilots get several months of classroom & simulator before they fly these planes, so don't get too frustrated trying to learn the systems.

The journey of 1,000 miles starts with the first step.... ENJOY!

Lou



My take:

Assume radios are tuned properly.

Initial APP
 AP -  MAN, HDG, ALT

ILS Intersect
 AP -  AUTO GS
 FD - HDG ALT  Leave this setting for several seconds to override 45 degree intercept???

 FD - AUTO GS

Is this the simplistic way of breaking down an ILS Capture?

I am hoping to get good enough to take her up on VATSIM...not sure it is possible with all the toggling and clicking going on.... I think I will get well versed in "Going Around" .

Thanks Lou, much appreciated!  Makes more sense.  Your right, take it slow and learn it slow.

davecat wrote on Jan 4^th, 2011 at 1:16am:

What exactly does Acceleration do?  Looks like a few planes, more missions.... which bore me.  Why in the world would CS design a plane that requires this add-on?

Davecat,  I only purchased Acceleration to make the CS 727 AP pitch control work correctly.  It did cause my other favorite plane to break, though, but I'm working on a solution for that.

Other than that, it does come with two new military aircraft and a new chopper.  Updated scenery, missions, and better Direct X 10 support are part of the update.  Not sure what else.  I imagine that eventually I'll play with the F/A-18 and the carrier ops that you can apparently get into with it.  

Gosh! I did not know 727 autopilot is such a mess even after several patches. Additionally I don't own Acceleration. It looks like this autopilot is useless in radial capturing, pitch control and ILS landing.

@Gambler. Sorry you feel like that and left! :( I guess you didn't search the fix for this problem too well. Captain Sim provided a fixed gauge for this in KB #4897:

Q: I have issues with autopilot pitch control.

A: We are aware of the issue, it appears only on systems with no MS Acceleration installed. Because Microsoft missed the AP PITCH HOLD token in FSX SP2, but our A/P requires it.

http://www.captainsim.org/tools/x727/2300/727_ap.jpg

Fix for those who do not have MS Acceleration installed:
1. Please download the file.
2. Move the file to [Microsoft Flight Simulator X Root Folder]\SimObjects\Airplanes\CS_B727-100\panel folder. Press 'Yes' when asked to replace the file.

From: 727 Captain (FSX) / On the list for next SP (QID 4897)

Mark

Trouble is, the fix doesn't really fix the issue.  You just trade one problem (AP pitch control does nothing) for another (wild oscillations of the yoke).   The only real fix is to install Acceleration.  I have confirmed this.