I finally decided to try an automated approach (too much fun to fly manually).  I switched to auto g/s and waited for it to do something when the glideslope was intercepted from below, but nothing happened.  Can someone run down the steps.  I am capturing the localizer fine, just on the glide slope.

I find it best to line up on the ILS from a fair way out (10nm - 15nm) and below the G/S. Once I have captured the ILS, I wait until just before the G/S reaches the center of the ADI. Once ILS and G/S are captured, I switch to MAN G/S on the A/P. MAN G/S is much smoother than AUTO G/S, less rocking and rolling while it is trying to stay "on the ball", so to speak. This works for me every time. I get a nice smooth approach and landing.

Hope this helps.

Mark

Hi Tim

I can second Mark. May I add following to it:

a) Make sure you have the ILS-Frequency tuned into NAV 1
b) Try to be at propper speed (~200)

So, this is what I do:

1) Dial in the ILS-Frequency into NAV 1
2) AP is on MAN and Heading/Alt Select is ON
3) When I see the G/S Indicator "wandering in" (e.g. I start to intercept the G/S horizontally) I put the AP on AUTO G/S
4) You will now see that the "Heading Hold" switch will turn to OFF
   - Hold Altitude is still on
5) Once I am on the G/S (horizontally) I put the A/P on MAN G/S
6) It will start to decend the G/S as soon as you intercept the vertical
   beam. If I recall correctly, the "Hold Altidude" Switch will stay "ON",
   but as long as it descends...
 ;D
Happy Landings
Mike#

P.S.: I managed to do a ILS Approach that way yesterday and I know how to do it. But sometimes it just won´t work. I will always intercept the horizontal beam but I had/have a hard time to get the vertical beam (yes, I am always "below" when I try to catch).
If it doesn´t work the first time, keep on trying - I sure tried a couple of times until it worked...  ::)

Tim is right, I also usually land manually, or rather just use
the localizer, err Mike G/S doesnt have a horizontal component
thats called the localizer.  But I was practicing some landings
this evening and just tried to follow the glideslope and it did
NOT follow it.  And, yes, I think i know how :)

Have no such problem in the 757 or 767 on the same approach,
this is on auto g/s, what is the manual supposed to do??

Its not a big deal to me as I prefer to land manually but it would
be nice to know what's wrong.

Jack Vogel wrote on Jul 15^th, 2010 at 7:03am:

Have no such problem in the 757 or 767 on the same approach, this is on auto g/s, what is the manual supposed to do?? Its not a big deal to me as I prefer to land manually but it would be nice to know what's wrong.

OK. LOU explained it in a post here somewhere, but I can't find it. It goes like this:

The AUTO G/S is initially used to catch the LOC and G/S. SO. After you are aligned with the LOC and descending along the G/S, switch the A/P to MAN G/S. MAN G/S is much less sensitive than AUTO G/S and so the aircraft will follow them both much more smoothly. You are much less likely to get that "roller coaster ride" type of approach. I have had some very nice smooth approaches and landings doing it this way. Staying with the AUTO G/S, I have had  mostly terrible ones!

Also. Once I get to my decision height (around 200' AGL) I turn the A/P OFF and manually fly the final approach and landing.

Mark

Jack Vogel

Thanks for the info (regarding "Localizer) - I´m not yet used to all the slang but got a new one now thanks to you  ;D

I wonder what Version you are on? You can find that out in your aircraft.cfg - it´s written quite on the beginning.

Since I own the boxed version I still am on Version 2.3.  You may be on version 2.4? Pls check as maybe you and I have a bug while Mark -being probably on SP 2.4 doesn´t have this issue anymore.

If you have bought the plane directly at CS via download then you are fine as you could download a patch. If you have the boxed version like me - you are not fine. But I´ll stop here as my blood pressure already starts raising  :(

Happy Landings

Mike

Hi Mike.

I was using the A/P the same way with v2.3 as well and although it was not quite as good as v2.4, it was still quite good using it the same way.

Be aware that if Jack is using the 727 Base pack download from CS, it will still show him as using v2.3!

This is the description from original aircraft.cfg in v2.4: description=727 Captain (727-100 Base Pack) v2.3\n(c) 2009 Captain Sim www.captainsim.com
I have edited it to read as follows: description=727 Captain (727-100 Base Pack) v2.4\n(c) 2010 Captain Sim www.captainsim.com

Mark

Hi Mark

This is really strange - I indeed am always able to get the A/P to catch the localizer. It´s the descent that´s not working. In some cases it even happens that the A/P (no matter if on Auto or MAN G/S) veers off the horizontal path after he catched it propperly.

It catches it, keeps on track for a certain time - then seems to loose track and veers left or right. Happened yesterday on approach to Managua - Nicaragua.

I don´t want to ask too much of you, really. But if you have time at hand - could you do me a favour and fly the route "Guatemala City - Managua" It´s around 1 hour flight time. You will be directed to land at Managua Airport by flying over the city of Managua. Mind - there are some trees right bevore the RW treshold. I wonder if you can catch the ILS and land "free handed" until around 200 ft as you normaly do. I could not.

As a reminder, here my procedure:

a) Stay on A/P Manual with heading/alt engaged - direction and alt as  
   adviced by MS ATC. ILS Frequency tuned in.
b) As soon as I see the glide slope approaching on the instrument,
   I engage A/P Auto GS. At this moment I am at around 190 kn.
c) A/P Auto GS catches localizer and veers to intercept G/S course.
d) Once A/P Auto GS is established on localizer, I switch to A/P Man  
   GS in order to avoid coaster ride.
e) Now what normally happens is that "it" does NOT descend the G/S

I managed recently to have it descend the G/S that way when I was on Approach to Gran Canaria. There it went down just perfectly.

If you have the nerve to check that out - you would make my day  :D

Cheers

P.S.: Are you using ORBX (http://fullterrain.com/) As an aussie it´s a must. You know it? If not - have a look. You will cry tears when you see that. I don´t have it as it´s not "my main place" - but you need it - no doubt  ;D )

Merlin

Hi Mike.

I'll give your flight a go pretty soon. hopefully tonight or tomorrow night. We had a blackout (for just a few seconds) and my wifes computer m/b fried itself and I'm fixing it ASAP. She'll kick my butt if I don't! ;)

And yes. I have FTX AU Blue, Green, Gold and Red, Avalon (YMAV) Melbourne (YMML) and Coffs Harbour (YSCH). All except Coffs Harbour were bought either pre-paid or as soon as they were released. I'll be upgrading to an i7 soon and hope to get some great results with Orbx FTX and REX and ASX/ASE. I get low framerates with YMML and YMAV unfortunately. Avalon and Melbourne are close to where I live (YBLT) so I use them a lot.

Mark

Mark!

Thanks a lot for your kind support! Sorry for wifeys MoBo - I know how "urgent" those IT-Issues are  ;D  They could miss updating Facebook  :D

I was almost sure you already have FTX - man I envy you for that :-) I don´t even have to try to convince my wife of the "urgent necessity" to have this addon - I am currently on the "watch list" as we got an unexpected tax bill and thus finances are a bit "difficult"...


Have a look at this video (bet you already know it too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqRRyegf0ns

Cheers Mate

Mike

P.S.: On 1992 when I got to know my wife whe was bound to go to AUS to learn english (LOL - she came back with that accent hehehe) and there she was a couple of weeks at Ocean Grove where she has family. The world IS actually small he?

I'm trying to convince the wife to get a new CPU to go with the new m/b, but she is still undecided. Facebook? She is missing her farming game because our laptop is a bit slow compared to her computer. ;D

As for my Flight Sim hobby, I'm quite lucky there. I get a pretty good amount of "pocket money" every week (allotted to me by my wife), so I get to buy my add-ons for Flight Sim whenever I have saved enough to get them.

Yes the world is small. My wife has some friends who don't live very far from Ocean Grove.

Mark

I7 and GTX-480 made a huge difference.  Now there's no such thing as worrying about frame rates.  Captain Sim, bloom, everything <shrug>

GTX-480 @ $AU640 - $AU690 might be out of my reach for a (long) while. I was thinking of getting a GTX-470 @ $AU440 which is closer to my budget for a graphics card. As it is, I'm still deciding between an i7 860 with 8Gb of RAM and an i7 930 with 6Gb of RAM. ;D

Ya, I have I7-975 and GTX275, would like a Fermi, maybe for
christmas, but I'm still pretty happy at near max settings :)

I did buy my 727 via download, and I'm pretty sure I am at the
latest service.

I've tweaked the autopilot section of the aircraft.cfg based on a
posting over at avsim, but after all is said and done I'd still say
this is broken.

What I usually do is 1. Tune to localizer, get a vector into the
path and then set AP to NAV/Loc, once in the signal path it
catches the localizer just fine. BTW, I did discover that if you
had the 'Heading Select' switch set it will not capture the localizer
either, have to make sure to turn that off. 2. As I watch the
G/S indicator when it starts to fall, I'll drop gear, and then
toggle the AP over to auto g/s. What I expect to happen is as
it crosses the horizon point that the plane noses down and
keeps it there, right, its what every other Boeing does, its what
DF will do on FS9, there's not supposed to be any secret hand
signal :), but it ain't happening guys, tried it multiple times in
the 28L approach to KPDX last night, no joy :(

Hi Jack.

If you bought the download version it will be the latest version.

As to the A/P capturing the ILS. I do it much the same way as you do. It captures both the ILS and the G/S and, as I said before, once it has captured them both, I switch to MAN G/S. I get a nice smooth approach and landing. I have flown many flights in the CS727 that way.

Mark

Mark

You may also consider looking at the Core i5 750 - it's a good CPU - less expensive and might allow you to spend more on the GPU? Just an idea. I have that CPU and am very happy with it.

Cheers!

Mike

I'm wondering if this problem has anything to do with attitude. With some aircraft you can get the nose too high, to the point where the antennae can't see down far enough, so the ILS loses it's capture.

Has anyone tried flying the ILS at a higher speed?

Mark, I too use YMML and YBBN with all the FTX areas and I saw a guy on their forums post up some figures on GTX470 and 480. My 5870 was around the same fps as his 480 but at a higher resolution. My 1920x1200 vs his 1680x1050. They are very good as long as you use Jesus Altuves SM3 mod. (That stops the stuttering in heavy cloud) The ATI have a bad rep in the FSX world for some reason but I can assure you they work as well if not better than a 480. Jesus Altuve himself said he regretted selling his 5870 after he discovered the mod.
The worst I get is mid teens at YMML in the 767 vc and that's usually when there's a lot of traffic. (My Traffic 2010)
So if cash is an issue then I can highly recommend the 5870.

It amazes me how far and wide FUD can spread and the fanboys who spread it should be ashamed. We are supposed to be helping each other out, or so I thought. (I should mention that wasn't aimed at anyone here)

/Rant.

I've had the same issues. See my comments in the other AUTOPILOT thread.

Red STar wrote on Sep 7^th, 2010 at 6:36am:

I've had the same issues. See my comments in the other AUTOPILOT thread.

See my reply in the other AUTOPILOT thread. ;)

Mark

Markoz, so you're saying most (>90%) of your approaches you capture GS without any problems?

Yes I am. With the ones that aren't successful, I blame myself (pilot error) because I've stuffed up somewhere on my approach. Because I either fail to lose enough altitude in time or I lose too much too soon are the main reasons.

Mark

The autopilot problem with glideslope capture seems to be related to the boxed version V2.3. I have purchased both the download version and the boxed version. I always prefer to get the boxed version and install this in preference to the other. That seems to be the faulty version. I recently removed the boxed version that was giving autopilot trouble and reinstalled the download. The autopilot worked fine - glideslope capture was correct and gave no problems. I have sent to CS Support a recommendation that the boxed versions need prompt support with updates. In my case, I had to buy the download freighter package, even though I had already bought it with the boxed version, because I had a particular interest in those aircraft. My B-727 is now working fine, but at a cost in money - and more importantly, my simming time spent troubleshooting the problems. It's a lovely aircraft and I look forward to finally doing some quality IFR.

Autopilot operations on the CS-727.

I have Ver 2.4.

Just flew a bunch of ILS autopilot approaches to see how the CS-727 works. It is remarkable how this software simulates the real 727.

The key to a autopilot approach is not to hurry the poor autopilot. Remember this is 1950's state-of-the-art stuff so you can't expect 757, 767, or Airbus navigation or electronics. In the real plane you need to be set-up for the approach long before intercept...no different here!

Get all the radios set to the correct frequencies and set the course on the HDI to the ILS inbound course. You can get the correct freq. from the MAP drop-down. Just mouse over the ILS for the runway you plan to land on and the ILS information will appear.

As you fly in the traffic pattern have the autopilot in MANUAL or HEADING SELECT with ALTITUDE HOLD engaged. You can steer the plane in heading select and work yourself toward and intercept heading.

Here are some ball park or canned speeds to fly in the pattern:
Landing weight 125,000 to 130,000#
CLEAN - 230 KTS (not less than 200 KTS)
FLAPS 2 - Not more than 230 KTS not less than say 180 KTS
FLAPS 5 -between 180 and 160 KTS
FLAPS 15 around 150 KTS

As you get close to the ILS intercept be at FLAPS 15 and around 150 KTS. This will give you a better degrees per second turn rate thus giving the old autopilot a better chance of success. (the faster you go the slower the turn rate for a given bank angle)

You can select AUTO-G/S anytime during your vectoring for the intercept. The autopilot will remain in HEADING SELECT until LOC intercept.
You must remain BELOW the G/S and intercept the LOC first.

I set up the plane on an intercept heading of around 30 degrees to the localizer and on the initial approach altitude for the ILS selected and about 10 miles from the airport.

I set up the autopilot & F/D in altitude hold and heading select.

I select G/S AUTO on both the autopilot and the F/D. I am flying at 150 KTS with flaps 15 which is a normal setting for this phase of the approach.

Give the autopilot a chance to do it's thing by not rushing the approach.

As the LOC comes alive, the autopilot and F/D will captured the LOC and intercept. The heading select will trip off.  With the LOC captured and the plane at 150 KTS and flaps 15 degrees I am now trucking towards the runway. As the G/S comes alive select gear down. One dot to G/S intercept select flaps 30 degrees and as the plane pitches down at G/S intercept adjust power to maintain speed. For these approaches I set the fuel load to 20,000 # and I used around 125 KTS on final.

Note on the F/D... To get "all angle capture" by the F/D you must first select HEADING SELECT and be in that mode for a few seconds before selecting G/S AUTO. The F/D will remain in heading select and can be controlled with the heading knob up until capture of the LOC. If you do not do this heading select first and go directly to G/S AUTO the F/D will program a 45 degree intercept. Not a big deal, but this will give you the option of guiding the plane to an intercept heading during vectoring.

Take note of the approach progress display group of lights on the instrument panel. They show the modes of the autopilot and the F/D as they go through the various arm & capture modes.

Make smooth and slow power changes and try to hold a constant speed. Every speed change will result in a pitch change and thus a trim change and the approach becomes unstable. I use FUEL FLOW to set power. At 30 degrees flap at this weight around 2,000 to 2,500 FF should be close. Adjust smoothly to stay on speed.

The 727 is not an auto land plane so you must disconnect before touchdown.  ;D

MANUAL G/S was only used:
When above the glide slope or on an extended (long) approach.

Once the ILS is captured by the autopilot a timer starts in the autopilot. As the aircraft gets closer to the runway the LOC and G/S get more sensitive. Boeing designed the glide slope to begin desensitization as the plane would get closer to the runway. In the 727-100 this was based on time. (the 727-200 used the radar altimeter - much better! Did not need to use this procedure.)

So, if you are on an extended (long) final and you have intercepted the ILS at a higher altitude the G/S would need to be re-sensitized during the approach. Here is how you do this: While in AUTO G/S and on LOC and G/S, you select a non radio mode - HEADING SELECT, then select MANUAL G/S quickly by pushing down on the switch and move to MANUAL G/S. Folks, this is way too detailed for this simulator. Just don't fly too long a final and intercept at a higher altitude. You can fly a 50 mile LOC (done sometines in KLAX or KLAS) just don't select AUTO G/S until 7 or 8 miles out.

I hope this information helps. It's a bit technical, but simmers like myself enjoy the detail. I find this CS-727 to be a blast and a lot of fond memories of the old plane which was always fun to fly.

Remember this is a "game" not a multi-million dollar simulator. I think it's a great simulation and it flys pretty much like the real thing which was not CAT-II. Give it a try and don't rush the approach and it will do a good job.

Lou

Hi Lou.

Thanks again for your very informative and detailed advice. I always use the AUTO G/S to capture the localizer and g/s and then once this has been achieved, I switch to MAN G/S for the remainder of the approach and landing until turning the A/P off at between 200 and 150 feet AGL and landing manually. This works very well and gives me a great success rate (see my post above).


LOU wrote on Mar 8^th, 2010 at 3:51am:

G/S AUTO should be used to intercept the ILS when below the glide slope. Using G/S MANUAL will cause the autopilot to intercept both the LOC and G/S right now! G/S MANUAL is used when you are above the glide slope or when you are already on both the LOC & G/S. In older 727's this would EXTEND the glide slope and re-sensitize the G/S signal if on a long final. As you approach the runway, the G/S signal is desensitized by the auto pilot so as to lessen the pitch movements as you get closer.

It was this line here (underlined in the quote) that I originally got the idea from. ;)

With this new piece of information I am going to have to try it this way to see how it goes!

EDIT: The Topic, that the quote above came from, can be found HERE. I highly recommend reading the whole Topic as it turned the CS727 into a very enjoyable experience for me. Prior to that, I was struggling with this beast (especially landings).

Mark