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No more updates? (Read 3347 times)
windplayer
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #15 - Jun 26th, 2012, 10:59am
 
Thanks guys! Things clears out.
About #5 - CS manual says that in case of turbocompressor failure, you can use engine bleed valves.

CoolP, we cant ask this guys on photo! Thats me, my friend watson, and that third dude, i dont know him Smiley We always wearing sun-glasses, so people could not see our big shocked eyes, it looks like  this  Shocked

Grin
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CoolP
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #16 - Jun 26th, 2012, 1:53pm
 
I knew we couldn't trust the folks wearing sunglasses at night.  Sad
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windplayer
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #17 - Jun 26th, 2012, 3:03pm
 
Smiley
Btw, CoolP, where did you got this 707 manual?
did you bought it?

did you bought something from http://www.flight-manuals.com/b707.html ?

i think i'll buy 707, 727 manuals one day. Maybe after that we could fly without sunglasses Wink
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LOU
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727,707,747,757,767=
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #18 - Jun 26th, 2012, 3:20pm
 
You make the sun glasses look good!



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CoolP
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #19 - Jun 26th, 2012, 6:03pm
 
Nobody is flying without sunglasses.  Cool  Tongue

The Operations Manual came from http://avsimrus.com. You will find plenty of manuals there, including Airbus, Embraer and some of the Boeing planes of course. Not to forget some Russian ones.  Cheesy I think I've mentioned that source in another thread already.
I've downloaded that 707 manual in 2009, so I knew about the plane before it arrived in FSX.  Cheesy By the way, she still is right on top of my favourites, together with my Concorde.

Some are
License: Freeware - Free version, Unlimited Distribution
and others are
License: Freeware - Free version, Do Not Redistribute
or
License: License file included in archive (which could mean anything, one has to look at the files)

I haven't gained full faith in their search feature so far. Means you may have to click through some pages within their library. I'd say it's worth the effort and you may only miss some data in the actual manuals, but the 707 one has a lot of schematics to look at, so I'm cool with it while the performance data came from Avsim.com as a freebie. Combine both and you are set.

Here's the link to some Avsim.com files. http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=matt+zagoren&CatID=root&Go=Search... Matt Zagoren has put together a lot of those.
Some more general data can be found right on the Boeing page. But that's more for the airport planning with the noise or safety zones or weight on wheels, turn radius and things. But it also includes the required runway length to TO and landing, so perhaps it's worth a look. I'd say that our sim 707 performs slightly better than the real one.
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #20 - Jun 26th, 2012, 6:50pm
 
Did those snippets make any sense to you, Lou? Or would you say that I've totally mixed up the context? Undecided
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LOU
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #21 - Jun 27th, 2012, 8:21pm
 
CoolP:

#5 I've got those two on the bleed air valves. If the air compressors are off, you can pressurize the system for engine starts and things. I'm looking at it as an alternate method to get some pressure into the pneumatic ducts. Does that make sense?

Since the plane has turbo compressors and bleeds it makes it a bit redundant, since they do the same job. The fact that you can use engine bleed air to pressurize the plane is fine but then why have the turbos too? If there are no engines running then the bleed air switch will do nothing to help get the engines started. In the 707 the only way to get the engines started was external air cart or high pressure bottle on number three engine only. Maybe later 707's added an APU, but I never saw that except for Air Force One.

#2 item gets explained here. Alternate low pressure start switch. Seems like this one is used in the case of defective starter cutout switches. They should usually drive the start valves to open and, at some 35% N2, to close. So if they are defective, the start valves won't open and no air will reach the air driven starters. Means no engine start, even with pressure in the system. The alternate start switch forces the start valves to open up and they will only close if the switch is set to off again.

Not a clue here... ??? I stopped flying the 707 by the end of the 70's. It could be some sort of add-on device. The TWA 707 start switches were the same as the 727. The pilot had to hold the start switch open just like the 727. By mashing down on the start switch you would open the start valve and provide ignition so that when the start lever was raised the fuel would light off and the engine would start. The way it worked was like this...

PILOT: Cockpit to ground, pressurize the manifold for start.
MECHANIC: Roger, stand-by. Manifold at 40 P.S.I.
PILOT: Turning #3

What would happen is the F/E would see around 40 psi on his panel and then the PNF would mash the engine start switch. You would first see N2 rotation since that was directly connected to the air starter. At 15% N2 and N1 rotation the PF would raise the start lever and look for FF and light off. When N2 reached 35% and increasing, start switch off and observe duct pressure for pressure increase confirming started cut-out. This was very important that the start valve actually close since if it stayed open the starter would continue to spin and after a short while destroy itself. Not Good!

If no light off in just a few seconds after the start lever is raised, the PF would close the start lever and the PNF would continue to rotate the engine for 30 seconds so as to clear the fuel. Start switch closed. After checking the ignition CB's a second attempt would occur after the engine had spun down. If the start valve would not open and no rotation was observed then a manual opening of the start valve was done. This was great fun since the start valve is physically on the engine and there is a tiny hole in the cowling where the junior mechanic would insert a long screwdriver into the hole and push on a button which would open the start valve. This took a lot of coordination in the inter-phone with the mechanic. The PNF would mash down on the start switch and the PF would tell the junior mechanic to engage the starter. The engine would start to turn and N2 rotation was noted. Here is where it got fun for the junior puke. When 15% of N2 was reached the start lever was raised and the engine would light off. The mechanic was about the middle of the engine cowl and as the fan started to spin the air flow would increase and by the time the mechanic was told to pull the screw driver out of the hole the air flow was pretty strong not to mention LOUD!

I know I've gone a long way around, but for the life of me I have no idea what those 2 switches on the F/E panel really do.

#3 looks like a pressure relief thingy or something. But I couldn't find it in the docs. I'm guessing. If the pressure relief valve of the cabin fails to open while in 'auto', you can force it to open. Would make sense since it can run in 'auto' or 'open'. Cabin pressure dump alternate maybe?

Got me! The 707's I flew did not have anything like that.  Sad  Maybe it was like the ground venturi in the 727 which was a small fan that would keep the outflow valves open.

#4 items should consist of the coolant air system controls explained here. The (guarded) RAM air switch and the various switches for the valve positions. But I don't think this affects anything. The manual speaks of drag considerations though.

Since this 707 has ACM's (air cycle machines) the controls on the AUX panel are for opening and closing the inlet and outlet doors much as the 727 had, but again they look like an add-on item since they are off to the side and not on the air conditioning panel.

Lou

 
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #22 - Jun 27th, 2012, 9:59pm
 
Quote:
Since the plane has turbo compressors and bleeds it makes it a bit redundant, since they do the same job.

I can only guess on that one (much as on all the other items), but if you had the #2 turbo failing, the only way to get any pressure into the ducts would be the #2 engine bleed. As you say, redundancy.

Quote:
This was great fun since the start valve is physically on the engine and there is a tiny hole in the cowling where the junior mechanic would insert a long screwdriver into the hole and push on a button which would open the start valve.
I've highlighted the vital word.  Grin
'Who has to go out in the rain and search that button?' 'Oh, look, we have fresh mechanic right there!'
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LOU
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #23 - Jun 27th, 2012, 11:48pm
 
CoolP,

Any one turbo can supply enough air to keep the cabin OK.
Engine 2, 3 & 4 have turbos and all supply a common duct.
Even only one turbo can supply enough air to start all the engines.

Lou
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #24 - Jun 28th, 2012, 1:15am
 
Don't worry, Lou, I believe you.  Smiley I guess we would have to ask some Boeing engineer on why that engine bleed thingy was built in the first place when having some three air compressors on the plane.
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LOU
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Re: No more updates?
Reply #25 - Jun 28th, 2012, 3:23am
 
As I said some where above...

This plane that CS has modeled is a much later 707 than I flew. The engine bleed thing was accepted by the time the 727 was born. So I am just guessing that this plane had both turbos and bleeds...cool!

Each airline had different custom stuff back then which ended with the 767/757. Our flight director was completely different and we had a slow fast pointer (sorta like an angle of attack indicator) which was a very nice thing to have to check on the real lift the plane was able to make.

We also had different start switches which worked just like the 727. The Freon packs were a nice advantage on the ground since the 707 did not have an APU so getting cooling on the ground required a large huffer to provide enough air to run the packs. The Freon packs would cool very nicely by just using recirculated air.  

The 707 was one of the nicest flying planes I flew. The 757 was an amazing plane to fly. Full loads, short fields, no problem!

I did get to sit once in the Concorde cockpit. I was amazed how small it was. That was one cool plane for it's time indeed.

Lou
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Moar fuel please

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Re: No more updates?
Reply #26 - Jul 4th, 2012, 7:24am
 
LOU wrote on Jun 28th, 2012, 3:23am:
I did get to sit once in the Concorde cockpit. I was amazed how small it was. That was one cool plane for it's time indeed.

Lou

Still is cool. It's so sad that politics got in the way.
Jealousy is a curse.

Interesting start sequence on the 707, pretty much the same as the twin squirrel with C-20's. FADEC has bought an end to the fun.  Roll Eyes
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