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767/757 Approach Advice (Read 25144 times)

Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #15 - Jan 4^th, 2014 at 2:18am	Print Post
	I'm curious about which Transition you used for ILS34R? I chose ILS34R.SONDR �to go with HAWKZ3.BTG because SONDR was the last waypoint for HAWKS3.BTG and it is also the first waypoint for the approach to ILS34R: This meant there was no need to use VECTORS to capture the ILS/GS (or to use VECTORS to reach the first waypoint of the approach on ILS34R (which are CIDUG or SONDR): Did you remove some waypoints from the STAR or APPROACH? Personally, I would probably wanted to remove the waypoints ARVAD and FOURT as well as VECTORS, so that my route was direct from LACEE to SONDR, which would mean there was no need to backtrack away from KSEA to be able to reach the TRANSITION waypoints of ILS34R. Note: Failure to select the approach transition, means your route ends at the last waypoint of the STAR (VECTORS in this case). Jan 4^th, 2014 at 4:48am - I flew your route using IL34R.SONDR as my approach. After passing FOURT, I turned right to a heading of 185^o, and flew that heading, while descending to, and holding 6000 feet (the SONDR altitude constraint of /6000A) until I was about 2nm beyond being parallel to SONDR, then I turned towards it. Once I was heading directly towards SONDR, I copied it into the scratchpad, then pasted it into LSK1L (CDU LEGS Page) and pressed EXEC. I then turned LNAV back on. After passing SONDR, I then descended to 5000 feet, and once I reached NEAL, I pressed the APP button. I immediately captured both the ILS and GS and continued on to land in the centre of runway ILS34R. It never deviated from the path. Straight in and right in the centre! I forgot to answer the following questions. So here they are: Quote: Do all three A/P�s lit (engage) when you "catch" the GS and Localizer? Not when I captur the ILS and GS, but once the LAND3 lights up, all three AP CMD buttons activate (illuminate). Quote: In my case only the left one (L) lits as it does during the flight. I always use the centre (C) CMD button when flying the 767 (or 757) - It's just my preference. It should not matter whether you are using the left (L), centre (C) or right (R) CMD button to control the AP! Quote: Do I have to dial the CRS (343 in this case) in the HDG of the MCP? No! Once the ILS Localizer is captured, the MCP should automatically set the heading to the ILS Localizer heading (343^o in this case). Hope this helps.

	Mark Fletcher PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz \| 64GB DDR4 3200 \| 12GB RTX 4070 Super \| 32" LCD Monitor \| 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD \| Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020 15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ \| 32GB DDR4 \| 6GB GTX 1060 \| 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD \| Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #16 - Jan 4^th, 2014 at 1:04pm	Print Post
	I�m not sure how to insert pictures here, so I�ll explain; The Star used is called OLM7 and the TRANS is called BTG. The last WayPoint before touchdown �is called CF34R, and is located 8 NM out from the RWY. I approach this CF34R with a HDG 034, then I click LOC and the aircraft makes a left turn to the CRS 343. Once the pink GS bug reaches the center, I click APP, and I then lower the landing gear. Hope this helps. Best Regards. Anders

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Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #17 - Jan 4^th, 2014 at 3:53pm	Print Post
	I can see what you have done. You select 34R (not ILS34R) so there is no Transition needed for the approach. Selecting 34R gives you only the one waypoint, CF34R before RW34R. When I did the route, I selected ILS34R, not 34R as the landing runway, so I had to choose a Transition for the approach. The Transition choices were CIDUG and SONDR, of which I selected SONDR. In the above image, your runway selection is shown on the left side (in the red box) and my runway selection is shown on the right side (in the blue box). This image shows that I have selected (SEL) STAR OLM8 TRANS BTG and APPROACH ILS34R, but have not yet selected a TRANS to go with the APPROACH.

	Mark Fletcher PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz \| 64GB DDR4 3200 \| 12GB RTX 4070 Super \| 32" LCD Monitor \| 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD \| Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020 15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ \| 32GB DDR4 \| 6GB GTX 1060 \| 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD \| Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #18 - Jan 4^th, 2014 at 10:39pm	Print Post
	There are actually quite a few STARS and TRANS that I can�t find in my system. Such as OLM8 (I have OLM7) SONDR and HAWKS3. I haven�t changed my cycles from the original May05June01/11. I then tried to make some other arrivals using other STARS and TRANS, deleting waypoints to smoothen up the approaches. But then I ended up with endless missing T/D issues Would it help to update the Navigraph base to a new Cycle? BR, Anders

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Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #19 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 2:01am	Print Post
	Quote: There are actually quite a few STARS and TRANS that I can�t find in my system. Such as OLM8 (I have OLM7) SONDR and HAWKS3. I haven�t changed my cycles from the original May05June01/11. It can make it difficult, especially when a tutorial is done for an earlier AIRAC cycle than the one currently in use (if you happen to do an update/or update monthly). But I can use FSC9 or PFPX to create a route similar to a tutorial, by using the same jetways, but with slightly different waypoints, due to changes. Quote: I then tried to make some other arrivals using other STARS and TRANS, deleting waypoints to smoothen up the approaches. But then I ended up with endless missing T/D issues There is a trick to removing waypoints and still being able to get the T/D, but it can take a lot of messing around with to get it. What I do is take note of all the waypoints in the STAR/TRANS and the APPROACH/TRANS, and all speed and altitude constraints that go with them. Then I select a runway (as in 34R, NOT ILS34R) and then manually enter the waypoints and any speed/altitude constraints, leaving out the ones I don't want to use. In the case of KSEA 34R, it could mean leaving out some waypoints from the APPROACH/TRANS IF the heading is going to require a 180^o turn. From memory, doing that allows me to have a T/D, but keeping that waypoint prior to the runway waypoint, (i.e. CF34R before RW34R). Quote: Would it help to update the Navigraph base to a new Cycle? There are some differences between AIRAC cycle 1313 and 1105, but probably not a huge difference. As I said in a reply in the 777 Captain - Tech issues > FMC (incl LNAV, VNAV) forum: Markoz wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 4:25am: fuzzy11 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49pm: How do you deal with having FSX nav data out of date versus FMC data being very up to date? It does make it hard because things do change over time. For example, YMML SID DOSEL8 used to be DOSEL7, but the waypoints in both are the same. Another thing I have noticed is that waypoints do occasionally have name changes, so the name of a waypoint in AIRAC 1212, might be different in AIRAC 1312. One other thing that I think happens, is that when a waypoint name changes, it may not be that it is changed, but that it is removed and replaced with different waypoint, and at different LON/LAT coordinates, than the old ones. So I wouldn't worry too much about changing it. At a cost of around �25 ($AU38) for 13 cycles ($AU2.93 per cycle), I consider it pretty cheap to update it monthly. If I was flying online for a Virtual Airline, it would make more sense to update it monthly, but I don't, so I have no real reason to update it, other than that I choose to do so.

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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #20 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 6:30am	Print Post
	Ok, there are some other things I will try out. Thank you for the advice. I was just about to purchase the 767-200 package, but I think that I will have to leave that one out for now. BR, Anders

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Tim Capps Senior Member Offline Defense Lawyer & US Navy JAG (ret), Writer Posts: 1070 Location: Southern Illinois Joined: May 21^st, 2009	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #21 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 6:44am	Print Post
	I question the wisdom of updating cycles, but I do it. I am using a new service, the "A" one, not the "N" one. It is interesting to see a favorite old route throw a curve at you. (That's a baseball expression for a ball that is unexpectedly difficult to hit ). At least with that, I notice various airplanes seem to handle them differently (which shouldn't be). Sometimes, I can't get an arrival and approach to even show up -- tonight SLVR VOR Z RWY 16 is a good example. I selected everything, but then it would not show up in LEGS. Only by selecting the vanilla RWY 16 approach could I get a runway showing, and I had to build everything around it with fixes and holds. Not a big deal, but obviously the product is not working as advertised. (The no TD trick worked for me, though, for the first time!) If you're just flying around by yourself, there's really no reason to have them, like Mark said, unless you just want to see that current date in your FMC and see changes. Those aren't bad things -- I do it -- just not necessary things. And don't be afraid to modify the approach end of your route so it makes sense if you need to. Also, I'm a firm believer that a computer is not much good without charts to look at and understand. You can find a lot free online, or get a year's subscription for about the price of a decent add-on airplane.

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Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #22 - Jan 5^th, 2014 at 7:20am	Print Post
	I bought AS NavDataPro to try it out for a few cycles (I still got Navigraph at the same time), but I wasn't happy with it and went back to using only Navigraph. I also think that in January 2013, Navigraph "expanded their coverage". It looked like the reason for doing it was due to NavDataPro, but that's a guess. Quote: And don't be afraid to modify the approach end of your route so it makes sense if you need to. Because we are not flying in the real world, we can change the SID, STAR, APPROACH and TRANS to suit ourselves.

	Mark Fletcher PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz \| 64GB DDR4 3200 \| 12GB RTX 4070 Super \| 32" LCD Monitor \| 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD \| Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020 15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ \| 32GB DDR4 \| 6GB GTX 1060 \| 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD \| Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #23 - Jan 12^th, 2014 at 6:53am	Print Post
	Well, I made a couple of short flights from my hometown EKCH to some airports in my region, ENGM, EDDH and EDDB. This time I selected ILSxxx as the arrival. At least it seemed to work each time with landing right in the middle of the RWY's So, I don't know what happened in Seattle . I' ll try again, may I am just more skilled now.. But I noticed that some of the suggested STAR's in Rfinder.net really generate some tight and sharp arrivals that may be doable with a Cessna or a Spitfire, but hardly possible with a large Boeing.. Maybe that could have caused the misalignment before? What other flight planners would you recommend? Best regards Anders

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Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #24 - Jan 12^th, 2014 at 3:48pm	Print Post
	As far as I know, Route Finder free does not provide a SID or STAR. It gives you a route between two airports, leaving you to add a SID and STAR. I think the reason for that is because depending on the winds, you cant be sure of which runway you will be using to take off from.

	Mark Fletcher PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz \| 64GB DDR4 3200 \| 12GB RTX 4070 Super \| 32" LCD Monitor \| 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD \| Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020 15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ \| 32GB DDR4 \| 6GB GTX 1060 \| 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD \| Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #25 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 7:54am	Print Post
	Hi, Several flights now without an issue Now looking sharp in DX10 � Rfinder actually has some "some sort of" Stars and Sids. But I think sometimes they are mixed up with trans points. Anyway, I normally find a solution and really enjoy the 767 now. Thanks again very much for the advice. Best Regards Anders

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Markoz CS Team Offline Posts: 12360 Location: Victoria, Australia Joined: Apr 24^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #26 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 11:39am	Print Post
	I think rfinderfree looks for a high altitude route between the two airports you choose, and the first, and last, waypoints are along the chosen route, so you may find a SID that will end after the first waypoint, and a STAR that starts before the last waypoint, giving the appearance of including both. Try asking for a route, like KSEA to PHNL, and you will end up with a like this: KSEA (0.0nm) -DCT-> LOFAL (28.4nm) -V4-> DIGGN (35.1nm) -V4-> JAWBN (41.0nm) -V495-> WATTR (48.6nm) -V495-> JIGEB (55.1nm) -V495-> ORCUS (63.0nm) -J502-> YYJ (90.0nm) -J502-> ARRUE (122.8nm) -J502-> ROYST (172.7nm) -J502-> YZT (281.0nm) -J523-> YZP (506.2nm) -TR19-> FRIED (593.4nm) -J804R-> EEDEN (746.9nm) -J804R-> SNOUT (943.2nm) -J804R-> MDO (1113.6nm) -Q17-> WUXAN (1198.6nm) -Q17-> HOM (1273.5nm) -V321-> ELDOH (1293.0nm) -V321-> AUGEY (1319.4nm) -V321-> BATTY (1390.8nm) -V321-> OSKOE (1436.7nm) -V321-> AKN (1446.6nm) -V454-> EXIPE (1456.6nm) -V454-> DAJOB (1475.4nm) -V321-> EHM (1612.6nm) -G10-> SPY (1887.9nm) -G469-> CREMR (2007.5nm) -G469-> PIPPA (2088.5nm) -G469-> ONEIL (2492.1nm) -G469-> NYMPH (2656.5nm) -R220-> NUZAN (2854.5nm) -R220-> NRKEY (3005.7nm) -R220-> NIPPI (3055.5nm) -R220-> NOGAL (3385.5nm) -R220-> NUBDA (3715.7nm) -R220-> NANNO (3755.3nm) -R220-> NODAN (3878.5nm) -R220-> NANAC (4000.7nm) -OTR10-> KAGIS (4188.6nm) -A590-> ONASU (4301.5nm) -A590-> MOE (4369.9nm) -A590-> KARTA (4430.3nm) -A590-> YOSHI (4431.8nm) -Y85-> MAPDO (4468.8nm) -A339-> TAXON (4641.3nm) -A597-> ASEDA (4958.4nm) -A597-> MONPI (5211.6nm) -A597-> RICHH (5472.4nm) -A597-> REEDE (5623.1nm) -A597-> UNZ (5722.9nm) -R584-> JUNIE (5903.1nm) -R584-> GUNSS (5977.8nm) -R584-> TKK (6275.7nm) -R584-> BIRUQ (6625.7nm) -R584-> PNI (6655.7nm) -R584-> HAVNU (6685.6nm) -R584-> LOOIS (7052.1nm) -R584-> NDJ (7231.8nm) -R584-> CURCH (7292.4nm) -R584-> MAJ (7465.1nm) -R584-> MAZZA (8052.0nm) -R584-> MANRE (8605.6nm) -R584-> MCFLY (9159.0nm) -R584-> CHOKO (9270.2nm) -STAR-> PHNL (9445.7nm) This happens because there are no airways between HQM and SEDAR, so it needs to find another way there. Notice that the route length is 9445.7nm? That route consists of flying North to Alaska. Crossing the Northern Pacific to Japan. THEN turning East toward Hawaii. And as I said, that's just because there is no airway between HQM and SEDAR, or more to the point, rfinder does not know about airway C1418, and it might not be in the AIRAC you use either. Seriously, If I was going to fly to PHNL from KSEA, it is only about 2400nm, and this is the route I would use: KSEA HAROB4.HQM (or ELMAA.HQM) DIRECT TO (or C1418) SEDAR A331 ZIGIE MAGGI3.ZIGIE (this STAR can be used for any arrival runway) PHNL. So as you see, rfinder can give you a bit of a run around when it comes to a route. Although I use rfinder to help with a route, I still check it out in Flight Sim Commander 9 and will change it if, and where, I see necessary. For better route planing, Professional Flight Planner X is very good. I find PFPX is easier to find the next connecting airway, and I can still throw in a DIRECT TO when needed. Anyway. It's all food for thought. We each choose our own ways of creating routes, so there's no set way to do it.

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AndersCN Full Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: Dec 13^th, 2011	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #27 - Jan 18^th, 2014 at 1:54pm	Print Post
	That is right, sometimes Rfinder sends you out on a silly long route. This is especially so over the oceans. However, if you roll back to an earlier cycle, such as 0904, you will get a more sensible 2350 NM from Seatlle to Honolulu. I have no idea why this is so, but this is what I do. Travelling from Europe to North America you should enable NAT - North Atlantic Tracks. I sometimes forget that, and it suggests a route around the North Pole and Canada.. Best Regards Anders

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fowler Full Member Offline Posts: 72 Joined: Oct 31^st, 2009	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #28 - Dec 10^th, 2014 at 6:38pm	Print Post
	About ILS not shown properly : If you start a flight using MANUAL tuning of radionav (VOR/DME label on front panel) because you cannot use LNAV then don't forget to put it back to AUTO when you dont use this VOR anymore (you switched to LNAV most probably) this because if this switch is still on MANUAL you won't get ILS shown active on ND even if you loaded a STAR, freq correctly shown on NAV/RAD page and you switched the ND to ILS.


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LOU Beta Team Online 727,707,747,757,767= 40years of Boeings Posts: 1593 Location: Central PA, USA Joined: Mar 3^rd, 2010 Gender:	Re: 767/757 Approach Advice Reply #29 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 5:09pm	Print Post
	Hello Anders, You asked: A few questions. Do all three A/P�s lit (engage) when you "catch" the GS and Localizer? In my case only the left one (L) lits as it does during the flight. Do I have to dial the CRS (343 in this case) in the HDG of the MCP? It's been a while since I actually flew the 767, but if I remember correctly you must have the APP switch armed prior to arming additional autopilots required for autoland. The APP switch, when armed, also arms the previously engaged single autopilot for capture of the localizer and glide slope. The left FCC is powered by the left AC & DC busses; the right FCC is powered by the right AC & DC busses; and the center FCC is normally powered by the center AC & DC busses. However, when the third autopilot is armed, the center AC bus transfers to the static inverter, and the center DC bus transfers to the hot battery bus. This feature provides three separate power sources for the three autopilots. At 1,500 feet radio altitude, with LOC & G/S captured, the other autopilots engage hydraulically. and the ASA's indicate autoland capability. FLARE & ROLLOUT armed appear in the ADI's. Rudder authority is available to the autopilots for yaw control if an engine failure were to occur. If you selected the proper ILS in the computer then the course will appear. The heading cursor will slew to the inbound course at LOC capture. Lou

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