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 25 To New Members Lou and Delta Dog (Read 64025 times)
btscott
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To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Mar 6th, 2010 at 5:47pm
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I have been watching this board for some time waiting for the CS 727 to get a clean bill of health--- consensus wise. Seems there are still numerous problems, so I will continue waiting before I purchase.

Since both of you are career pilots with lots of 72 hours I hope you will provide ongoing input as to your experience and satisfaction level with this product.

I am not a pilot, but spent my entire working career in the airline and travel industry. I have quite a few hours riding 72s in the back end, as well as the jump seat, and I would really like to have this airplane in my FSX; but only after it is properly finished--- at least to your satisfaction. So, thank you in advance for any comments.

B. Scott
  
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delta dog
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #1 - Mar 7th, 2010 at 12:30am
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Not bad.
Some of the things I noticed that are not right are:
Noise when flaps move
Only got the FD to display one time and with alt hold selected the FD only followed,not commanded.Have not yet managed to put the FD in app mode.
HSI knob only moves one way.
Nav radio can only be tuned to a lower freq.
No tail skid when gear is down. Didn't notice if tail skid light is displayed on FE panel.
With full throttle the EPR gauges should go past 2.0 EPRs [Unless the wx is really hot.]
The sink rate warning goes off during a normal app on the GS.
However,overall it is fairly close to the 727.
The roll rate is about right but it takes too much elevator pressure.
The power to airspeed parameters and pitch with TO power are correct and are pretty good.
I give it a B-.




  
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btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #2 - Mar 7th, 2010 at 4:16am
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DD  -  Thank you for the feedback!

B- isn't too bad, I suppose. I guess my main concern is does the auto pilot work properly and does it pick up the ILS localizer and glideslope, disconnecting the HDG Hold and The ALT Hold etc. I assume your comment on the FD(flight director?) in APP(approach) mode has to do with this.

The sink rate warning is a FSX problem with the default planes as well.

I am basically a seat of the pants FSX pilot and some of your response is somewhat unfamiliar to me --flap noise (too much, too little), tail skid (didn't know there was some sort of panel indicator, HSI and NAV radio movement problems) but overall it sounds like you are fairly satisfied and the plane is very flyable.

Btw, the EPR gauge thing doesn't really register with me with the exception I always used to sweat denied boarding (due weight restrictions) here in DEN during the hot weather season.

This is what I mean by seat of the pants:

http://www.vimeo.com/8685197

Thanks again!

B. Scott

  
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Markoz
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2010 at 10:20am
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delta dog wrote on Mar 7th, 2010 at 12:30am:
Not bad.
Some of the things I noticed that are not right are:
Noise when flaps move
Only got the FD to display one time and with alt hold selected the FD only followed,not commanded.Have not yet managed to put the FD in app mode.
HSI knob only moves one way.
Nav radio can only be tuned to a lower freq
.
No tail skid when gear is down. Didn't notice if tail skid light is displayed on FE panel.
With full throttle the EPR gauges should go past 2.0 EPRs [Unless the wx is really hot.]
The sink rate warning goes off during a normal app on the GS.
However,overall it is fairly close to the 727.
The roll rate is about right but it takes too much elevator pressure.
The power to airspeed parameters and pitch with TO power are correct and are pretty good.
I give it a B-.




The two that I have highlighted (bold) I do not have happen. To rotate the knobs in the VC, I use the Left Mouse Button for one direction (e.g. frequency down) and the Right Mouse Button for the other (e.g. frequency up).

Mark
  

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btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #4 - Mar 7th, 2010 at 2:14pm
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Mark -

Thanks for those tips. I have put together a folder of tweaks and tips on the 727 gleaned from this board. You and others have come up with some great finds and suggestions. Sooner or later I'm sure I'll purchase this airplane. Good work!

B. Scott
  
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LOU
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #5 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 3:51am
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Some observations on the autopilot and flight director.
I tried making an ILS using the autopilot and flight director.

I vectored myself well outside the outer marker for a 30 degree intercept for the LOC and level flight at 3,000 feet. Autopilot set to altitude hold and heading select.

I selected G/S AUTO which should intercept the LOC first then the G/S from below. Heading select did not trip off to intercept the LOC. I took off heading select and the autopilot then started to capture the LOC.

The autopilot flew the ILS as expected after that. The flight director which was also selected to G/S AUTO on the other hand did nothing but follow the ADI.

G/S AUTO should be used to intercept the ILS when below the glide slope. Using G/S MANUAL will cause the autopilot to intercept both the LOC and G/S right now! G/S MANUAL is used when you are above the glide slope or when you are already on both the LOC & G/S. In older 727's this would EXTEND the glide slope and re-sensitize the G/S signal if on a long final. As you approach the runway, the G/S signal is desensitized by the auto pilot so as to lessen the pitch movements as you get closer.

Don't forget this is 50 year old stuff! The newer planes are MUCH more advanced and make wonderful auto-lands. I have made many auto-lands at very low RVR's in 767 and 757's that were flawless. The 727 is not such an animal and the auto pilot is, shall we say, old.

Success with the auto pilot in the 727 requires giving the old gal smooth intercepts - around 30 degrees, and being on speed for the flap setting so as not to cause large pitch changes.

I hope this helps.

Lou
  

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Markoz
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #6 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 4:29am
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I would like to add a couple of things to my earlier post.

Changing the NAV/COM settings using the Mouse Wheel only changes the frequency down, so delta dog is correct (it just depends on how you try to change the frequencies).

On the VC Autopilot controls, my HDG HOLD won't turn off regardless of RMB or LMB attemps! I have to use the 2D Autopilot. Turning it on works fine on the VC Autopilot.

Another thing is this. Clicking with RMB or LMB on COM1 dial for the primary (?) part of the frequency (123.95) changes the number by 2 places. e.g. if I want change it from 123.95 to 124.95 and use the RMB the frequency becomes 125.95 with a single click. This doesn't happen with COM2! It is easier to use COM2 because of this.

@LOU. Thanks for pointing out how the Autopilot AUTO G/S and MANUAL G/S work. Is that how it works in a real 727 or in the Captain Sim 727 or in both? In the mean time I will go and give that a try.

Mark
  

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btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 2:19pm
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Lou -

Excellent info! Thank you for the feedback. Although you didn't actually say so, It sounds to me like like the auto pilot and flight director work pretty much as they should, and are, in fact, an accurate representation of the real deal. Would appreciate a confirmation if you're at a point that you are satisfied that they are.

Mark -

More good tips on working the dials. Thanks.

B. Scott
  
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LOU
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #8 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 3:31pm
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The prior note about the auto pilot is how the real 727-100 works. The 727-200 had a newer type auto pilot that was much better than the -100.

As for the Flight Director??? I don't think it does much. I tried hand flying the ILS using the F/D and it never did anything but mirror what ever the ADI was doing. When I would fly left or right of the LOC or above or below the G/S it never gave a command to correct me either in G/S AUTO or MAN. In the real 727 the "yellow bird" as it was called was a superb flight director that was very stable and easy to fly.

Lou
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #9 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 6:11pm
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Lou -

Okay, I now interpret this to mean that the Auto Pilot and Flight Director in the CS 727 do NOT work as they should.

Bruce
  
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LOU
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #10 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 6:35pm
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The autopilot is close.

The heading select should trip off at LOC capture.
The rest of the autopilot worked OK on my version 2.4.

As for the flight director...it did not do anything but appear on the ADI.
  

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btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #11 - Mar 8th, 2010 at 7:42pm
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Okay, the Heading Select does not automatically disengage as the ac intercepts the Localizer. It must be manually de-selected. But the Auto Pilot then fly's the localizer and the glide-slope as it should the rest of the way. The trick then is to de-select the Heading Hold just before capture of the localizer. Also to always intersect the Glide-slope from below. I can live with that. Thanks.
  
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LOU
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:26am
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More on autopilot operations on the CS-727.

I just flew a bunch of ILS autopilot approaches to see how the CS-727 works. It is remarkable how this software simulates the real 727.

In past posts I reported that the heading select switch did not trip off on LOC intercept. Well, after several ILS approaches, one after another I want to report that the autopilot worked very well.

I set up the plane on an intercept heading of around 30 degrees to the localizer and on the initial approach altitude for the ILS selected and about 10 miles from the airport. I set up the autopilot & F/D in altitude hold and heading select. I released the plane from pause and selected G/S AUTO on both the autopilot and the F/D. I slowed to around 160 KTS with flaps 15 which is a normal setting for this phase of the approach. Give the autopilot a chance to do it's thing by not rushing the approach. During these approaches, the autopilot and F/D both captured the LOC and gave the correct turn information. The heading select did trip off each time during these approaches as it should. With the LOC captured and the plane at 160 KTS and flaps 15 degrees I am now trucking towards the runway. As the G/S comes alive select gear down. One dot to G/S intercept select flaps 30 degrees and as the plane pitches down at G/S intercept adjust power to maintain speed. For these approaches I set the fuel load to 20,000 # and I used around 125 KTS on final. All was pretty much routine except the F/D altitude hold switch did not trip to off, but the F/D did in fact show proper information during the approach.

Note on the F/D... To get "all angle capture" by the F/D you must first select HEADING SELECT and be in that mode for a few seconds before selecting G/S AUTO. The F/D will remain in heading select and can be controlled with the heading knob up until capture of the LOC. If you do not do this heading select first and go directly to G/S AUTO the F/D will program a 45 degree intercept. Not a big deal, but this will give you the option of guiding the plane to an intercept heading during vectoring.

Take note of the approach progress display group of lights on the instrument panel. They show the modes of the autopilot and the F/D as they go through the various arm & capture modes.

I hope this information helps. It's a bit technical, but simmers like myself enjoy the detail. I find this CS-727 to be a blast and a lot of fond memories of the old plane which was always fun to fly.

BTW the "don't sink" voice sang out from around 1,000 feet to about 100 feet during the approaches  Angry
  

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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2010 at 2:52am
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Hi Lou.

Some questions for you. If you don't mind.
    1. Have you have added the electric_always_available=1 to you aircraft.cfg?
    2. If you haven't added that line, are you having trouble with loss of avionics power?
    3. If you haven't added that line AND you aren't having that problem, could you please guide us through what you do from a Cold-n-Dark cockpit to the knob/button settings for maintaining power?

If the answer to #1 is yes, then the rest other questions don't matter. Of  course. Thanks in advance.

I am finding all you recent information in here very helpful, and I'm looking forward to hear more.

Mark
  

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PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz | 64GB DDR4 3200 | 8GB RTX 2070 | 32" LCD Monitor | 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD | Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020
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btscott
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Re: To New Members Lou and Delta Dog
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2010 at 3:42am
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Lou -

That last reply was quite clear and much appreciated. Apparently all is correct with the AP & FD except that the *Altitude Hold* did not trip off when the GS was intercepted. But even so the AP tracked the GS properly all the way down.

The rest of the information is quite helpful as well. It is evident that you give the CS 727 a thumbs up! Many thanks!!

Bruce

  
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